Ladders in TF2. Why Not?

Kaz · Aug 5, 2009

Hey Everyone,
Earlier I was sketching up an idea of a small arena map with the swamp theme, I had an idea to create sniper watchtowers, and I really can't think of any way to let people get up on them without a ladder or lift.
So I was wondering why ladders are so bad to have in a tf2 map?

jpr · Aug 5, 2009

1. They don't properly work in TF2
2. The characters have no climbing animations so climbing a ladder just looks stupid
3. It's pretty obvious valve doesn't want ladders or lifts in tf2 since they changed them into stairs in dustbowl and well

eerieone · Aug 5, 2009

watchtowers per se are boring, they are only practical for one class and have no other purpose, try to find a substitute for them.... sniperdecks like in mach4 or 2fort are a more elegant way to go

but if you insist on watchtowers, i would chose the eleveator

Micnax · Aug 5, 2009

I did see an idea on cp_oilrig where there was a ladder, and it was just a brush-ladder and a push trigger, so it would make the player 'jump' up to the top of the ladder quickly. Worked pretty well.

Psy · Aug 5, 2009

Ladders hinder movement. Hindering movement is not something you want in a fast-paced game.

SiniStarR · Aug 5, 2009

regardless, Valve didnt use them and for good reason, I think I read an article about it.
A semi good replacement for a ladder if you cant do ramps could be an elevator of sorts.

Ladders are really only useful for long range classes. In TF that just narrows it down for one class. In games like CS:S and CS, where all the weapons can shoot very far with semi good accuracy, laddders are fine. But every class in TF basically carries a shotgun or some sort of mid range weapon that isn't effective with distance. It's kinda like saying making narrow passages with tight corners in your entire map so the Pyro can have fun XD

jpr · Aug 5, 2009

I say no to elevators as well, they leave people waiting for it to come up/down. I say make a spiral staircase or something around the tower.

DJive · Aug 5, 2009

Psy said:
Ladders hinder movement. Hindering movement is not something you want in a fast-paced game.

TF2 is not a "fast paced game" I will agree though that ladders hinder movement.

Characters go up them so freaking fast it looks funny.

Westerhound · Aug 5, 2009

Psy said:
Ladders hinder movement. Hindering movement is not something you want in a fast-paced game.

Yea just look at Heavy he goes like lightning when he runs around corners NYEEEERRRM!!!

Kaz · Aug 6, 2009

Thanks for the help guys, however my problem still stands.
Ladders don't work properly in TF2.
Lifts are probably better but in a swamp map, a lift probably isn't the best thing to lift people up an old wooden watchtower that is rotting.
Same with a spiral staircase, I plan on making the watchtower quite small, so a spiral staircase probably wouldn't fit well in the swamp style and it would probably have to be to large to work properly for the size of the watchtower I have planned.

BTW, the reason I chose a watchtower over bigger battlements is because it's only for about 1 sniper and the map is also tiny with very little buildings around apart from the main shack. Also the reason I need a sniper place is to give snipers a chance on the map I planned out which has 1 large building and a lot of trees blocking the view from ground level.

It would be great to hear more suggestions for what I could use for this map, or I'll probly end up having to use a lift.

Fraz · Aug 6, 2009

If a sniper is a good sniper, he'll find places to fire. Snipers that camp battlements/whatever generally are corner snipers that aren't that good.

Kaz · Aug 6, 2009

Yes but I'd prefer to cater for all skill levels in my map.

grazr · Aug 6, 2009

Jonah said:
1. They don't properly work in TF2
2. The characters have no climbing animations so climbing a ladder just looks stupid
3. It's pretty obvious valve doesn't want ladders or lifts in tf2 since they changed them into stairs in dustbowl and well

And 2fort.

Also, elevators don't work because they create a graphics tear kind of visual bug on your screen where it "chugs" the player up/down.

Simply, you will have to incorporate some stairs (which shouldn't look to bad if the towers are not that tall) at 1:1 or 3:2 distance/climbing ratio's. Or you could simply have some stairs in one place, then have the sniper cross a catwalk to the tower.

Don · Aug 6, 2009

:O

Stormcaller3801 · Aug 6, 2009

I was going to offer up Don's suggestion, but he's put it so eloquently I'm not sure there's much of a point.

An alternative might be not to go up, but to go out. if you've got a big building and trees, you might consider some sort of rope bridge that connects the watchtower to some other item that's more amenable to stairs. Say, connect a rope bridge ramp to the top of one of those giant treestumps, and then have an impromptu ring of 2x4s around the trunk to make stairs. Arrange them properly and there shouldn't be an issue.

If the treestumps aren't quite as giant as I think, you could do something similar with an open platform, or just run the bridge to the building.

Shmitz · Aug 6, 2009

The short answer is: ladders take you out of the action.

From the time you start climbing to the time you stop climbing, your movement is restricted and your ability to aim is less than ideal because you're trying to move vertically, while your potential opponents will be on a more horizontal plane.

This is fine in some games, such as CSS or L4D, where you're supposed to be making a choice to take a somewhat more risky method of travel during some downtime, and just cross your finger that no threats show up. TF2 on the other hand is meant to keep you in the action as much as possible, and so ramps and stairs are the best solutions to keep players able to react to what's going on around them while traveling up or down a level.

n30n · Aug 7, 2009

I have few ladders in my map, it takes about 1 sec to get to the top its not that bad imo.

Open Blade · Aug 7, 2009

Kaz said:
Thanks for the help guys, however my problem still stands.
Ladders don't work properly in TF2.
Lifts are probably better but in a swamp map, a lift probably isn't the best thing to lift people up an old wooden watchtower that is rotting.
Same with a spiral staircase, I plan on making the watchtower quite small, so a spiral staircase probably wouldn't fit well in the swamp style and it would probably have to be to large to work properly for the size of the watchtower I have planned.

You don't have many options. Either make your tower larger then you originally wanted to accommodate stairs, or use a latter or lift on a smaller tower. Essentially it comes down to you picking either one of those.

Terr · Aug 7, 2009

I like the idea of a rotting rope-and-plank bridge from another elevated location, myself.

Open Blade · Aug 7, 2009

Terr said:
I like the idea of a rotting rope-and-plank bridge from another elevated location, myself.

Yup, plank bridge is the way to do this. And it would sorta go along with the swamp theme also.

Ladders in TF2. Why Not?

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