The Competitive Player: A Custom Mapper's Perspective

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
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Mar 4, 2008
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That probably wont be the only spelling mistake you find in there Shmitz. These things happen whilst still intoxicated and unable to sleep at 7 in the morning (I hope that does not undermine my previous arguement, ha ha).

That said, and at the risk of sounding sycophantic, that means a lot coming from the tf2maps member i respect the most. I find myself at a loss for words in threads you have already posted in, as you have often already expressed my keenest opinion and then some.
 
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Arnold

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 18, 2008
283
242
you may have teamplay on pub but i can assure you it is nowhere near the level of teamplay required to show class imbalances.

These imbalances will also only show at the highest level, pushing the class to it's highest potential shows the imbalances way better than having average players battle it out in mediocre-organised teams. The outcomes will most likely be determined by random spam or the random position of the team or the random crit shot killing you instantly.

I am european i play european pubs (although i really don't think it matters american european...) and there is little to no REAL teamwork involved because not everybody will talk, not everybody will call not everybody will listen not everybody will do what they should do at any point in the game because they don't understand the game well enough... and so on.

i'll say it again well-organised pubs will just result in excessive stalemates and spamfests i'm not talking about the average pub i'm talking about a pub where players fully understand the game and play accordingly.

I'll never say that comp play is better, there is no better, whatever makes you have fun will be the best choice. but i will say that competetive play shows imbalances way better than pub play ever will. that doesn't mean it will affect the pub as much as it will comp but they will still be there.
 

Shmitz

Old Hat
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Nov 12, 2007
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you may have teamplay on pub but i can assure you it is nowhere near the level of teamplay required to show class imbalances.

This is one thing that confuses me, because you claim that teamplay brings out class imbalances, but almost all the arguments I've heard saying a given class is underpowered are along the lines of "class X can also do that". What does that have to do with teamplay?
 

iQue

L1: Registered
Apr 16, 2009
15
5
This is one thing that confuses me, because you claim that teamplay brings out class imbalances, but almost all the arguments I've heard saying a given class is underpowered are along the lines of "class X can also do that". What does that have to do with teamplay?

Because at a high level of teamwork, it's easier to see which classes can cooperate with the team and do the dirty work. In public play it's rather easy to be a heavy, get a medic to heal you constantly and you'll roll over most people. You can usually do fine without a medic as well if you have access to some medpacks or a sandvich.

In competitive play a heavy is rather gimped. It's not because of team sizes, but if the enemy has some good communication going, the heavy isn't going to do much. If the enemy concentrate their fire on him for a second or two he's going down, regardless if he keeps getting buffed by a medic. He is basically screwed and can't really do anything to help his team other than to spin up in a corner and do some area denial, hoping that one of the enemies doesn't change class to sniper or spy. The heavy can be a good choice if you're focusing on defence or offensive pushes with some support fire, but the heavy is a really bad all around fighter in competitive play.

Heavy is a class that heavily depends on your opponents inability to communicate to do good.

Sorry if I said something contradicting or anything, my brain is mush after playing Bioshock for 4 hours.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
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That's simply one assumption after another. Maybe it's just because i come from the Europian scene. Public play does experience team work if only a handful of the amount that may be seen in competitive play. A pub game will favour the better team as much as a comp game will. How it resolves is exactly the same.


"Public requires class limits as much as comp play does."

I disagree. Public games balance themselves. Having too many of one class will inevitably result in being steam rolled by anti-classes. A team revolving heavily on a minority choice of classes will be out manouvered. The only result of this will be a team scramble or map win, change, and then scramble.

Pub play does need class limits, without a question. There will always be those retards that go sniper when you already have 2 on your team. Class limits are a must. Now that team with 3 snipers will get rolled, and class limits are there to prevent that rolling. With someone was stupid enough to go spy when we already have 3 then losing isn't going to make that person smarter but by inserting controls and safeties into the game we can make sure retards don't ruin it.

"There won't be much teamplay involved in any pub"

Again, maybe this is because i'm on the Europian scene, but this statement is just not true. I don't know what servers you play in, but you need to get around more. It's rare to join a server and not find atleast 2 people with mics on either team. Which although sounds like not a lot, is enough to rally team support and organisation. Atleast in pub play this is enough. But i fail to even see how this effects class balance.

It's the level of teamwork. In a comp match people are constantly communicate pushing, falling back, baiting and flanking. There is no comparison. In pubs you need to tell people to push over and over again to get them to push and in a comp match your like, "What's the uber at?" "87%" "What do they have on the point?" "soldi medic combo and some stickies" "ok, 95% uber we go in, scouts get the demo to blow, everyone else get their medic to pop and then we pop." "GO!" And that happens in less then 10 seconds.

"Public play will never expose these flaws as good as comp play will."

As previously stated, comp play and public play experience completely different game mechanics due to the player limitations. It seems like a pig headed statement if anything. It's not a matter of exposing flaws better than the other. Simply that you'll experience game flaws when not playing it how it was designed to be played. It goes without saying.

What was meant to be said here is that once you hit the higher levels of TF2 certain things don't work as they did before. Not becuase of the player number but becuase of the skill level. In comp play scouts 2-shot people all the time, in pub games most players can't pull off the 2-shot on a regular basis. In pub play the heavy medic combo owns since people don't know how to best it, in comp play a few demo pipes and rocket spam annihilates the heavy. In pubs the demo doesn't use his pipes that much short of spam since he can't hit. In higher level play the demo basically has 12 rockets, 4 pipes and 8 stickies, since people can aim that well. That's why there is a demo cap.

The higher you go up in skill level certain things that seemed balanced no longer are. This is what we mean by balancing the game for comp play. The game needs to be balanced for the best players. The excuse the sandman is hard to aim so therefore it's balanced doesn't apply to the good players that can hit with the sandman. That's the problem. Once skill level starts to rise certain classes become worse since they have a low skill ceiling (pyro) or are too easy to counter (engi, spy... to an extent)
 

tovilovan

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 23, 2008
391
104
The Competitive Player vs. The Public Player: The "We've Heard It All Before"-debate

Let's change the name of the thread or bring it to gotfrag or somewhere else. I'm really interested in how custom mappers should try to approach the competitive players, not in how valve should or shouldnt.
 

Terr

Cranky Coder
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Jul 31, 2009
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Just descending into some navel-gazing theoryspinning here... I think part of the "comp play maps" issue might be that some comp. leagues have painted themselves into a bit of a corner: The class distribution (conventions and prohibitions) begins to dictate what maps are "good", as opposed to vice-versa.

For instance, I can't imagine many of them liking a Pyro/Heavy-friendly labyrinthine underground map with minimal rocket-jump possibilities, even if the map itself is balanced and gorgeous and has side-paths which are friendly to scouts and soldiers. They're used-to environments where a class X dominates class Z, and (just human nature) will prefer things which are familiar that way.

Pub play does need class limits, without a question. There will always be those retards that go sniper when you already have 2 on your team.
That's not an argument for class limits, that's an argument against clueless players. You add class limits, and all that will really happen is that your two limit-sanctioned snipers will happen to be those clueless players. ;)
 
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uma plata

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 20, 2009
294
93
Let's change the name of the thread or bring it to gotfrag or somewhere else. I'm really interested in how custom mappers should try to approach the competitive players, not in how valve should or shouldnt.

I agree with that. Too much arguing, not enough positive suggestions to approaching two groups of very different customers

And yes, they are your customers, even though no money is changing hands

So here's my suggestion:

Just make the map you'd like to play

The comp scene will pick up anything that works in their sandbox. It shouldn't be a major design goal, although you can get some good input at times

Look at how cp_waste is being received. It's got some serious fans in the comp scene, even though it's a port of a pl tug-of-war map, and wasn't designed around 6x6 (I'm assuming so, anyway). Happy accident, it just works.
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
Happy accident, it just works.

That's what I've come to notice after a lot of mapping. No matter how much high level planning you do, sometimes it catches and sometimes it doesn't. Of course, there are exceptions to this as well. Follower and Yukon have a ton of high level planning behind them and they are successful.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
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Mar 4, 2008
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With someone was stupid enough to go spy when we already have 3 then losing isn't going to make that person smarter but by inserting controls and safeties into the game we can make sure retards don't ruin it.

Actually, that's exactly how (average) players learn that too many of one class is detrimental to their team. a 7-8 minute steamroll will end up bucking players up and force a team scramble.

And again, Mar, you make several assumptions. You assume that the map is 5cp push. I'll garauntee any A/D defence without a heavy medic combo flops. The same goes for offense, where there could be up to 3 heavies. Ignoring all game modes other than cp to justify imbalance for comps makes for a very poor arguement.

Lets say your team pulls a "focus fire" on a heavy. You now have a whole team with no ammo. A pyro flanks you and the rest push your team because you're low on ammo. Your whole team is dead. I'm just making examples here, this probably doesn't happen a lot in comp play (mostly because it's never given a chance too with class limits, but also i bring out many experiences of ctf, another game mode comp play ignores).

You can't just deny the circumstances in which these types of mechanics happen because comp play deny's playing it, and possibly end up justifying the use of the classes they currently do not approve of. They wont happen like this because there are not enough players to justify the use of specialised classes such as the heavy, pyro or engineer. You say..

The higher you go up in skill level certain things that seemed balanced no longer are.

You can't make that claim without a full team to balance the field to see whether these classes perform effectively as they were designed too. I have just stated how imbalanced your teams classes will be on a limited number of players, so it doesn't matter how skilled your team is, these classes are already imbalanced for 6vs6 to 12vs12.

But you seemed to have completely ignored all my previous arguements and claimed i simply can't know because i havn't experienced "teamwork".

P.S. I was going to say more, particularly on game modes comp play ignores, but i have to go to work.. and although this is a slightly off topic arguement it has gleamed several insights so i don't think it should be rashly brushed under the carpet, yet.
 
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Ninjilla

L420: High Member
Sep 13, 2008
445
116
Your example of what team work is Mar, the talking and planning on mic, sounds a lot like what I do when I go into most servers I frequent. Its not something pub players cant do, as I have done and seen done over and over again.

Also, how can you say people in comp can pull off a 2 shot, if you are speaking about on a Heavy, the scattergun just does not do that much dmg. If you ment on a soldier or something, disregard this :p
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
And again, Mar, you make several assumptions. You assume that the map is 5cp push. I'll garauntee any A/D defence without a heavy medic combo flops. The same goes for offense, where there could be up to 3 heavies.

Demo medic combo works just as well if not better on defense. Surprise, surprise comp play actually play A&D on a regular basis (Gpit). The problem with the heavy is he is too slow to get around effectively. Defense is easy without a heavy medic combo. I'd much rather get a soldier or demo with their extra mobility.

Lets say your team pulls a "focus fire" on a heavy. You now have a whole team with no ammo. A pyro flanks you and the rest push your team because you're low on ammo. Your whole team is dead.

It takes 4 rockets to kill a fully buffed heavy, how is that leaving us with no ammo?

I'm just making examples here, this probably doesn't happen a lot in comp play (mostly because it's never given a chance too with class limits, but also i bring out many experiences of ctf, another game mode comp play ignores).

Alot of people, even here, agree CTF doesn't work for TF2. This is due to the slow nature of TF2 and the fact your can just run in and out with a flag, get shot, instantly respawn and do it again.

You can't just deny the circumstances in which these types of mechanics happen because comp play deny's playing it, and possibly end up justifying the use of the classes they currently do not approve of. They wont happen like this because there are not enough players to justify the use of specialised classes such as the heavy, pyro or engineer. You say..


You can't make that claim without a full team to balance the field to see whether these classes perform effectively as they were designed too. I have just stated how imbalanced your teams classes will be on a limited number of players, so it doesn't matter how skilled your team is, these classes are already imbalanced for 6vs6 to 12vs12.

But you seemed to have completely ignored all my previous arguements and claimed i simply can't know because i havn't experienced "teamwork".

P.S. I was going to say more, particularly on game modes comp play ignores, but i have to go to work.. and although this is a slightly off topic arguement it has gleamed several insights so i don't think it should be rashly brushed under the carpet, yet.

I'm going to put it rather bluntly. Play competitively for 2 months and then say this again. If after playing competitively and seeing the problems with certain classes and maps (not gamemodes!) you can say that again the I will admit defeat.
 

Shmitz

Old Hat
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Nov 12, 2007
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Just to dismiss the offtopic part of this thread about "6v6 not being what Valve intended for the game", here is news about the TF2 Beta going on that top clans are participating in to help balance 6v6 play:

http://vilepickle.com/news/2009/08/01/team-fortress-2-beta/

All that tells me is that Valve is intelligently not ignoring a portion of their audience. 12vs12 is still and always has been the intended focus of the game's design and balance.
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
All that tells me is that Valve is intelligently not ignoring a portion of their audience. 12vs12 is still and always has been the intended focus of the game's design and balance.

I don't disagree, but I think they have more of a dual focus at this point.
 

StoneFrog

L6: Sharp Member
May 28, 2008
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zlqfpz.jpg
 

Cerious

L420: High Member
Aug 10, 2008
455
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I don't disagree, but I think they have more of a dual focus at this point.

Yeah, there is definitely some dual focus at the moment - there are competitive players from top teams that are testing out "Team Fortress 2 Beta" at the moment (check "recent history" in your overview tab if you have any friends that are in the competitive scene).
 

MangyCarface

Mapper
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Feb 26, 2008
1,626
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Yeah, there is definitely some dual focus at the moment - there are competitive players from top teams that are testing out "Team Fortress 2 Beta" at the moment (check "recent history" in your overview tab if you have any friends that are in the competitive scene).
: /

That was a response to a response about that very thing
 

iQue

L1: Registered
Apr 16, 2009
15
5
All that tells me is that Valve is intelligently not ignoring a portion of their audience. 12vs12 is still and always has been the intended focus of the game's design and balance.

I'd say that it was designed for 8v8 more than anything, with 24 players being the higher end. Valve never intended that there would be 32 player servers. CS:S and DoD :S are designed with 8v8 in mind but with built-in abilities to play with 24 players total.

Just a guess, but you're also guessing. ;)

There is absolutely nothing wrong to balance the game so it works better in 6v6, as long as it works in a public setting as well. It's only good if the game is balanced better in as many settings as possible. The game isn't exactly flawless as it is either.

Had a talk with a few guys involved in the beta and while they can't say much Valve are very eager to make TF2 even more competition friendly.