The Competitive Player: A Custom Mapper's Perspective

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
The biggest reason CTF isn't played is because of the maps.

False. The reason CTF is not played is because the game mode caters to fast paced movement while TF2 lacks this. It doesn't matter what type of layout you throw at it, most CTF will always play the same in competition. It's either a complete roll or a grinderfest regardless of map.

CTF works in many other games because it isn't slow.

But this is off topic, CTF won't be played in competition, I guarantee it.
 

Guardian

L1: Registered
Jul 27, 2009
44
9
False. The reason CTF is not played is because the game mode caters to fast paced movement while TF2 lacks this. It doesn't matter what type of layout you throw at it, most CTF will always play the same in competition. It's either a complete roll or a grinderfest regardless of map.

CTF works in many other games because it isn't slow.

But this is off topic, CTF won't be played in competition, I guarantee it.

ctf_turbine is played in Europe.
 

iQue

L1: Registered
Apr 16, 2009
15
5
It's not played in Europe just because it's a map and it exists, it's played because it's a fun, well balanced map. It's not slow or a grindfest - steamrolls are pretty rare and if one would happen the losing team isn't screwed either way. It might not be everyone's favourite map but I only know very few people that doesn't like playing it (almost everyone American, I might add)

CTF might not be everyone's favourite game mode but it's not hopeless mapping for it, at least not in Europe. If you make a smaller, faster, well balanced map and push for it a little bit I'm sure people will at least try it out.
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
Just as another CTF aside, it's extremely difficult to obtain any sort of design that can not be spawn camped in a competitive game. I've seen it in Turbine too, though the threshold between team skills and spawn camp-ability may be higher on Turbine. The reason this happens is due to the slowness of TF2 compared to other games in general.

Impact is rather difficult to spawn camp as well and it's a favorite in STA's 8v8 league (due to its medium sized nature).

Basically designing CTF is designing for how spawn camp-able your map is if you're aiming to have it in a league. Which isn't fun to design for in the first place. And then after you get past that fact, most gamers have tuned out any CTF map being viable in a league at this point in TF2. So yeah, mapping for that sounds.... promising. :(
 

TMP

Ancient Pyro Main
aa
Aug 11, 2008
947
560
Impact is rather difficult to spawn camp as well and it's a favorite in STA's 8v8 league (due to its medium sized nature)

I agree with the first one, but there is NO WAY you can call THAT medium sized.

Well, at least some of the paths. From intel to intel perhaps so.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
I just want to throw out there that if the game wasn't design with competitive play in mind then why would valve continue to balance the game? The majority of pub players aren't overly concerned about balance, so what other reason would Valve have to patch the game.
 

TMP

Ancient Pyro Main
aa
Aug 11, 2008
947
560
I just want to throw out there that if the game wasn't design with competitive play in mind then why would valve continue to balance the game? The majority of pub players aren't overly concerned about balance, so what other reason would Valve have to patch the game.

Players like me who are a mix of both? :)
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
Basically, your post is "I don't like competitive play because it doesn't fit my tastes." Well, one would assume the latter half of that statement just by knowing the first segment.

Essentially this is what I intended to say, though the goal was not to say "competition sucks" I was simply saying why I will never play comp in tf2.
Playing with a well organized team sounds like alot of fun, its just that I have always been irritated when people feel the need to remove certain aspects of the game. It happens in virtually every game I play online and it kinda bugs me. No powerups in mph, no items in brawl, no crits, damage spread or sandman in tf2.

I hate this for 2 reasons, its completely unfair to the people that learn to use the certain banned items and use them well, and removing these items completely alters the balance of the games. In terms of brawl there are just some characters that are almost useless without items, especially the slow characters.
In terms of tf2 by banning the sandman it prevents scouts from completely ruining ubers yes. But if scouts start running rampant, ruining ubers left and right, (as people seem to think they will) then maybe, I don't know, some team might come up with the bright idea of using a *gasp* engie to stop it. I don't know, maybe not a perfect example but still, I think it illustrates what players tweaking the meta game can do to the balance. Not to say that its only comp that can cause this type of issue, just look at the slew of mods that alter the gameplay significantly more.

Meh, I suppose I just like tf2 as it is, and losing any feature is annoying.

Oh, and the only reason I went so in depth into my opinion of what would be a fun league was in the off chance someone agreed with me and was interested in trying to build that sort of league. Didn't post that as I strongly suspected it would backfire <_<

EDIT: This just occurred to me, no one bother posting after me complaining about the sandman being OP, Im aware of it. <_< Though I think there are other things equally overpowered...so...yeah...
 
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Shmitz

Old Hat
aa
Nov 12, 2007
1,128
746
I just want to throw out there that if the game wasn't design with competitive play in mind then why would valve continue to balance the game? The majority of pub players aren't overly concerned about balance, so what other reason would Valve have to patch the game.

1) Pub players are concerned about balance.

2) Balance is always a goal worth seeking even if you don't have a vocal group of players saying they want it.

3) Balance does not always result from granting what said players say they want.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
I'm going to go on a limb and say that the people that play this game 2 hours a week don't really care if the sandman is in the game or not.

@MrAlBobo: Engi's sentry would get raped. Scouts can easily take out sentries with the right approach.

But that's beside the point. The reason that comp leagues have certain rules is becuase TF2 is not perfect and were taking measures to correct certain flaws. Comp teams would use engis, spies, heavies and pyros on a regular basis if it was worth playing them. But right now the classes are UP and a demo, soldi, scout, medic or sniper can do that they do and better.

If all classes were equal and balanced they would be equally used.

Just remember that when your talking about comp teams rules.
 

McNuggetFiend

L3: Member
Jun 22, 2009
147
51
All I know is somewhere awhile back in this thread I read Pub players don't use mics. On the pubs I frequent they do. And the elitists who are in the comp scene (not all of them, don't put your own agenda in that statement) do not because they literally think they don't need to because they are too good, I've been told this by them dozens of times.

Again, although many groups are to blame for division, I think competitive players are typically the worst at it.

Just my further 2 cents.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
If all classes were equal and balanced they would be equally used.

Classes are relavent to the circumstance they are performing in. In a 24 player server it's worth having at least one of each class. Sure, soldiers are more durable than heavies in a 6vs6, but as happens to be the case TF2 was not ultimately designed for 6vs6 but 24vs24.

There is no point playing support classes if there is no one to support. That is why you get certain classes not being played in comp play. a double heavy, medic combo in pub play is devistating. Just because it doesn't work the same in comp play is no reason to call the heavy a redundant class, or even broken.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
I get what your saying grazr but it's not purely like that.

Pyro's job is taken up by the scout and soldier
Spies are slow scouts
Engis can get wasted by anyone and demos do area denial just as well
Heavies are too slow to push well and a demo or soldi with a corner just take them out with bursts of damage. Heavy is the most UP class in the game.

Demo, scout and soldi are jack of all trades, masters of none, but off times better then masters of one.

Even look at 8v8 matches. The rotation goes 2 soldis, 2 scouts, 2 demos, 2 medics becuase it works so well and can do what the UP classes do and more.

And again, we've tried 12v12 matches and they didn't work as well as 6v6. We didn't just arbitrarily pull it from our butts. From almost 2 years of playing the game we found that 6v6, for many reasons, works best. 6v6 has less spam so it becomes more skilled based and less unintelligent saturation of splash damage weapons. Co-ordinating a team bigger then 6 people is a pain since there is an overload in vent chatter. More then 6 team members also is a pain with people showing up on time.

In the end 6v6 is one of those things that you have to play to understand. Do some PUG's and become just slightly familiar with comp play and then come back and tell me the same thing.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
They could possibly be X-men

And the elitists who are in the comp scene (not all of them, don't put your own agenda in that statement) do not because they literally think they don't need to because they are too good,

Whoever said this is stupid and probably not a real competitive player. You need a mic to effectively communicate and communication is critical to teamwork and you need teamwork to win in TF2. No clan or team will accept you if you don't have mic.

Those dudes must have been weird.
 

Shmitz

Old Hat
aa
Nov 12, 2007
1,128
746
I'm going to go on a limb and say that the people that play this game 2 hours a week don't really care if the sandman is in the game or not.

You're doing that idiotic thing again where you try to imply one thing is true, and then you try to imply the opposite is also true.

Here are your two mutually exclusive cases:

1) Valve is balancing the game for competitive players, because only competitive players care about balance.

2) Competitive players care about balance, which is why they ban unbalanced weapons that Valve has introduced, like the sandman.

Regardless of how ignorant both statements are about the nature of TF2 and its player base, pick ONE. You can't have both.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
Take it one step further. Both statements are true. Valve isn't always right in their balance. They do try balance stuff, they even nerfed the sandman but Valve is too prideful to fully get rid of their broken weapon so the comp leagues banned it. There is nothing contradictory here.
 

Cerious

L420: High Member
Aug 10, 2008
455
133
Holy fucking shit, can you stop trying to go on some crusade to prove that competitive players are bad/good? It's like U.S. politics except both sides are like the Republicans.

And yes, I mean both sides - people who pub that think comp. play is wrong have no say in the matter, and people who think comp. play should govern how pub play works should get shot in the foot.