Caliostro
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 6, 2009
- 261
- 110
That's like saying you want a tailor made suit, but you don't want the inconvenience of trying it on or checking the measures before it's done...
The Competitive Player: A Custom Mapper's Perspective
- Thread starter Vilepickle
- Start date
That's like saying you want a tailor made suit, but you don't want the inconvenience of trying it on or checking the measures before it's done...
- Oct 25, 2007
- 372
- 199
And that's exactly what Valve provides with its own maps. And with that we approach the root of our issues as custom mappers
Mar
Banned
- Feb 12, 2009
- 607
- 63
This is very true. I've met multiple true stories of this. It's quite sad. And all the nice comp players aren't very vocal since they have no reason to be.
I think ABS was simply saying that it's more a matter of "don't bite the hand that feeds you". Presumably competitive players are self aware and mature enough to realise that bitching and moaning and not supporting custom maps, will not help them get more maps for their scene. But that just doesn't seem to be the case.
That competitive players shouldn't be shocked when the custom mappers turn around and say something along the lines of "i told you so". 'You' abused and neglected us in the past when we cared about you, why should we bother now?
As spiteful as that sounds, there are just simply better more demanding things to be done than provide for the competitive scene. Muffin's concern for the competitive scene is likely something most of the pro mappers here muse over, and his active support can be considered no less than charity. Recognising the needy and trying to provide for them does not deserve the response it currently gets.
No not really. I know there are already around a dozen official maps which have been proven to be fun, then theres the polished customs like yukon and many more. Its more like wanting the best quality food from a restaurant, you trust the chef has done a good job to make it taste good already.
A good, solid map WILL work in 6v6 gameplay. Granary, badlands - on pubs they work fairly well albeit slightly stalemate-prone. These maps are 5cp which is the best TF gamemode for the smaller team size and setup. Comp players like these maps because of their vertical play, open yet not open areas and VERTICAL PLAY. I've noticed every map I enjoy has 3 height levels (one usually only slightly advantageous over the other like trains to bridge, one offering a much larger advantage for example bridge to canyon), perhaps that is a magic number.
The best custom 5cp I've played is Gullywash. It has the flow of a valve map, perfect scaling, vertical combat, open areas, mixed with the smaller confined areas, the alternate routes. Everything about it is great. I've only played it 12v12 but I can safely say it would be a breath of fresh air in 6v6.
It's also a good idea to listen to comp players if they provide a decent, thorough argument (not a one line "OMG FUKEN SUX"). It's not even worth arguing over - competitive players do have a wider understanding of game mechanics than someone who plays for 30 minutes after work because of the funny voices. So some will be able to help you balance your map. Some maps just don't click at all. There's not much you can do about it, because the layout may be inherently... a bit wrong? It's a feel that a lot of custom maps have. Just something about them isn't right.
The best custom 5cp I've played is Gullywash. It has the flow of a valve map, perfect scaling, vertical combat, open areas, mixed with the smaller confined areas, the alternate routes. Everything about it is great. I've only played it 12v12 but I can safely say it would be a breath of fresh air in 6v6.
It's also a good idea to listen to comp players if they provide a decent, thorough argument (not a one line "OMG FUKEN SUX"). It's not even worth arguing over - competitive players do have a wider understanding of game mechanics than someone who plays for 30 minutes after work because of the funny voices. So some will be able to help you balance your map. Some maps just don't click at all. There's not much you can do about it, because the layout may be inherently... a bit wrong? It's a feel that a lot of custom maps have. Just something about them isn't right.
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Somewhat confused.
I'm really quite shocked to see some of the descriptions of comp players in this thread. As a comp player myself, I generally find myself in opposition to those people with a "LOLOL CS R TEH BEST GAEM EVER" mentality. I've never actually met any comp players who were dicks about being comp players, unless one counts those claiming to play competitively on the Steam forums (I don't count them). I do consider myself to be a person with a pretty decent knowledge of maps and the process that goes into constructing them, so it irks me a good bit when people say things like "Shit map is shit" or "Lern 2 map n00b" to a mapper. I have to agree that this would turn off a mapper from trying to get their map played in comp games. I do admit that many players (both competitive and pub) are extremely picky (to the point of being dicks) about what they want in a map. I'm selective, but I'm not going to be a dick and ask someone to change their vision to suit my desires. Addressing the sentiment echoed by several people that "comp players aren't open to custom maps", I certainly am open to them. I run my own comp TF2 team and server, and customs are mainly what we play. Among my favorites are Yukon, Freight, Furnace, Glacier, and Follower to name a few. So mappers, ignore the dicks who say your map isn't good enough. Press on, and make the best damn map you can. Oh, and while you're (hopefully) inspired, how bout some more Turbine-esque CTF?
I'm really quite shocked to see some of the descriptions of comp players in this thread. As a comp player myself, I generally find myself in opposition to those people with a "LOLOL CS R TEH BEST GAEM EVER" mentality. I've never actually met any comp players who were dicks about being comp players, unless one counts those claiming to play competitively on the Steam forums (I don't count them). I do consider myself to be a person with a pretty decent knowledge of maps and the process that goes into constructing them, so it irks me a good bit when people say things like "Shit map is shit" or "Lern 2 map n00b" to a mapper. I have to agree that this would turn off a mapper from trying to get their map played in comp games. I do admit that many players (both competitive and pub) are extremely picky (to the point of being dicks) about what they want in a map. I'm selective, but I'm not going to be a dick and ask someone to change their vision to suit my desires. Addressing the sentiment echoed by several people that "comp players aren't open to custom maps", I certainly am open to them. I run my own comp TF2 team and server, and customs are mainly what we play. Among my favorites are Yukon, Freight, Furnace, Glacier, and Follower to name a few. So mappers, ignore the dicks who say your map isn't good enough. Press on, and make the best damn map you can. Oh, and while you're (hopefully) inspired, how bout some more Turbine-esque CTF?
- Oct 25, 2007
- 372
- 199
Club, I'm not seeking to generalize ALL comp players since there are exceptions to anything. Just posting what my overwhelming experience has been (or what stands out the most in a bad way).
I've certainly had a good amount of positive constructive thoughts about maps I've made from competitive players as well. Those people deserve a post too, but of course the immature ones piss me off and get the attention they are looking for :\
I've certainly had a good amount of positive constructive thoughts about maps I've made from competitive players as well. Those people deserve a post too, but of course the immature ones piss me off and get the attention they are looking for :\
Guardian
L1: Registered
- Jul 27, 2009
- 44
- 9
I think the root of all evil when it comes to Comp players is the simple fact that they need to been extremely familiar with the map before they completely like it and thus some dickheads are rude and say your map sucks.
There needs to be a meta-game established and strategies to stick to before a map is 100% accepted. If that discussion on gotfragged is any indication, then this usually takes about 3-4 months. I have a feeling cp_yukon, cp_waste and cp_follower will be eventually accepted into the comp scene alongside cp_freight but it'll just take a lot of time.
So what do mappers do in the meantime? Well just do what you do best and ignore these idiots who think they know how to map better then you. If a map is liked by the comp community, they'll eventually take it but in the meantime just focus on making a great map.
There needs to be a meta-game established and strategies to stick to before a map is 100% accepted. If that discussion on gotfragged is any indication, then this usually takes about 3-4 months. I have a feeling cp_yukon, cp_waste and cp_follower will be eventually accepted into the comp scene alongside cp_freight but it'll just take a lot of time.
So what do mappers do in the meantime? Well just do what you do best and ignore these idiots who think they know how to map better then you. If a map is liked by the comp community, they'll eventually take it but in the meantime just focus on making a great map.
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flux
L1: Registered
- Jun 16, 2009
- 49
- 30
An essay
Alright I do come from the Competitive scene, and let me get this out of the way:
I respect all of you at a high level, all of you mappers, even if your new or veteran at mapping
"Personally I don't have a "who am I mapping for" mentality. I'd rather just make my maps enjoyable for anyone, and take feedback from anyone. People don't need to draw a line, on who is competitive and who isn't at least in TF2 anyways."
I respect you guys because your not mapping for pubbers, and not mapping for comp players, in reality your doing this for your shear joy of mapping and abilities. I came into this community because this what you love to do, is just to map. That's one reason why I am here I want to map and get better.
To Vile
I know for a fact your not mapping for us (as in comp players) neither are you mapping for pubbers. Like I said above.
Your map is fantastic, and all do respect! Though i'm sure one day or your mapping one day, that all of a sudden is something clicked and you came up with a map. That's the beauty in mapping! Is coming up with ideas and making them happen!! You have taken alot of shit along with Mangy, I give BRAVO'S to both of you, hell I give you an encore!
Why most comp players are the way they are
Some might be cocky, some might be plain out asses, and then you got comp players who are out there just to enjoy playing people better then the everyday routine of "ok, I'm going to hold mouse1 and hold W and get most pionts(most people don't do that but getting the point across of everyday play in tf2)" Pubs are meant have fun, and just relax and have leisure time, but comp players do see beyond the lines of play. As I input my opinion on this post:
the whole competitive TF2 scene is broken. ignore it. bunch of whining kids trying to turn TF2 into counterstrike. screw em. TF2 was never intended as a serious competitive game, and never will be. classes like engineer and pyro will never pander to the hardcore twitch gamer or the practiced tactical player. TF2 is meant for actual humans to have fun with.
i could spend a while ranting and throwing in supporting arguments or whatever, but i've summed it up, and in the end, i'm right, comp players are wrong, ur all stuped lolololol stfu.
III_Demon, understand this:
Do not try to put a wall between comp players and pubbers, in my view you are wrong in every way, but I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, you have a voice, and you said it, well i'm using my opinion to say your wrong. Don't call us(comp players) in-human because we are human, yet like I've said we see past causal gaming, if you don't well don't try to stereotype all of us and saying your right about the whole thing. Have an open mind please. People that have opinions like yours get the wrong impression. I can agree the most of the comp scenes are dicks and cocky, but not all of us are! Gotfrag is full of people like that, but it makes you a better person to not all call us such awful things. It hurts my feelings when you do say:
TF2 was never intended as a serious competitive game, and never will be.
Well i'm sorry but it can and is, but look at the title of the game, TEAM FORTRESS 2. You actually have to work as a team to get some where in comp leagues, i'm sorry you can't solo a scout, because the scout is different then all the other classes, and so is the rest of the classes. They all have differences but valve made it so these other classes support these classes and move as a team. You can't do that in counter-strike you can actually kill the whole team with one good team player.
I agree that some classes have there moments where one person can get the team but they didn't do it all by themselves, a rocket or two must of hit that medic a couple of times, a demo got a sticky in, then the scout picked him out, then soon as the medics down it opens a whole new advantage against that team, no more heals - more damage can be taken without it being regenerated, so the scout uses his strats and abilities to use against the opponents, he double jumps over the solly gets behind him and kills him, gets the demo because the scouts quick and can move quick and dodge pipes and stickies, and well the team backs up the scout and kills the rest of the team. I'm sure there's many different ways but thats just an example.
I would like to see more maps for competitive leagues, another reason I am here also. I want to get good knowledge and feedback from you guys and also get ideas and mapping ideas from the comp scene.
yeah it might confuse you when I have said i'm here to make a map for me then make the map for comp players, well I like a good map for comp players so thats why I am making maps, because I am both, Though it doesn't mean I will be good at it, that's why I am ready for criticism when I release my map (which is in pre-production) If you don't want your map in the competitive league I'm sorry its your map and you have a say. I'll back you guys up if you ever want it out of the leagues. though its not a guarantee that I will make it happen just be happy you have support, mappers deserve more then what the give. I'm going to help you guys out
I'm open to explain more of what I said, just now i'm tired :sleep:
Alright I do come from the Competitive scene, and let me get this out of the way:
I respect all of you at a high level, all of you mappers, even if your new or veteran at mapping
"Personally I don't have a "who am I mapping for" mentality. I'd rather just make my maps enjoyable for anyone, and take feedback from anyone. People don't need to draw a line, on who is competitive and who isn't at least in TF2 anyways."
I respect you guys because your not mapping for pubbers, and not mapping for comp players, in reality your doing this for your shear joy of mapping and abilities. I came into this community because this what you love to do, is just to map. That's one reason why I am here I want to map and get better.
To Vile
I know for a fact your not mapping for us (as in comp players) neither are you mapping for pubbers. Like I said above.
Your map is fantastic, and all do respect! Though i'm sure one day or your mapping one day, that all of a sudden is something clicked and you came up with a map. That's the beauty in mapping! Is coming up with ideas and making them happen!! You have taken alot of shit along with Mangy, I give BRAVO'S to both of you, hell I give you an encore!
Why most comp players are the way they are
Some might be cocky, some might be plain out asses, and then you got comp players who are out there just to enjoy playing people better then the everyday routine of "ok, I'm going to hold mouse1 and hold W and get most pionts(most people don't do that but getting the point across of everyday play in tf2)" Pubs are meant have fun, and just relax and have leisure time, but comp players do see beyond the lines of play. As I input my opinion on this post:
the whole competitive TF2 scene is broken. ignore it. bunch of whining kids trying to turn TF2 into counterstrike. screw em. TF2 was never intended as a serious competitive game, and never will be. classes like engineer and pyro will never pander to the hardcore twitch gamer or the practiced tactical player. TF2 is meant for actual humans to have fun with.
i could spend a while ranting and throwing in supporting arguments or whatever, but i've summed it up, and in the end, i'm right, comp players are wrong, ur all stuped lolololol stfu.
III_Demon, understand this:
Do not try to put a wall between comp players and pubbers, in my view you are wrong in every way, but I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, you have a voice, and you said it, well i'm using my opinion to say your wrong. Don't call us(comp players) in-human because we are human, yet like I've said we see past causal gaming, if you don't well don't try to stereotype all of us and saying your right about the whole thing. Have an open mind please. People that have opinions like yours get the wrong impression. I can agree the most of the comp scenes are dicks and cocky, but not all of us are! Gotfrag is full of people like that, but it makes you a better person to not all call us such awful things. It hurts my feelings when you do say:
TF2 was never intended as a serious competitive game, and never will be.
Well i'm sorry but it can and is, but look at the title of the game, TEAM FORTRESS 2. You actually have to work as a team to get some where in comp leagues, i'm sorry you can't solo a scout, because the scout is different then all the other classes, and so is the rest of the classes. They all have differences but valve made it so these other classes support these classes and move as a team. You can't do that in counter-strike you can actually kill the whole team with one good team player.
I agree that some classes have there moments where one person can get the team but they didn't do it all by themselves, a rocket or two must of hit that medic a couple of times, a demo got a sticky in, then the scout picked him out, then soon as the medics down it opens a whole new advantage against that team, no more heals - more damage can be taken without it being regenerated, so the scout uses his strats and abilities to use against the opponents, he double jumps over the solly gets behind him and kills him, gets the demo because the scouts quick and can move quick and dodge pipes and stickies, and well the team backs up the scout and kills the rest of the team. I'm sure there's many different ways but thats just an example.
I would like to see more maps for competitive leagues, another reason I am here also. I want to get good knowledge and feedback from you guys and also get ideas and mapping ideas from the comp scene.
yeah it might confuse you when I have said i'm here to make a map for me then make the map for comp players, well I like a good map for comp players so thats why I am making maps, because I am both, Though it doesn't mean I will be good at it, that's why I am ready for criticism when I release my map (which is in pre-production) If you don't want your map in the competitive league I'm sorry its your map and you have a say. I'll back you guys up if you ever want it out of the leagues. though its not a guarantee that I will make it happen just be happy you have support, mappers deserve more then what the give. I'm going to help you guys out
I'm open to explain more of what I said, just now i'm tired :sleep:
usually these sorts of discussions degenerate very quickly into namecalling and retardation, so i just skip to the end. there are multiple people in this thread making sincere efforts to further understanding, so ... sorry for my initial rant, i'll try and participate more constructively here.
in this paragraph you kinda argued with me, then agreed with my point. of course there are decent people in the comp scene. i've met some, and i'm very aware that people are people, and generalizations are generalizations. i've never had a problem with individual competitive gamers i've known, my problem is with the overall scene and the prevailing attitudes. there are a lot of people making a lot of noise and bringing the whole scene in the wrong direction, IMO. i think we actually agree on this point.
some points have been made about comp gamers and why they are the way they are, about imitation of the top teams... and thats exactly my primary problem, right there. its a fundamental issue that goes to the core of what this thread is talking about, and what i feel is wrong with comp gaming these days. comp scenes seem to be all about stagnation. they find some game with some map and some restrictive settings, and park there. eventually a bunch of vocal jackasses declare that the ONLY way to play the game, and make a big whining arrogant stink when anyone suggests otherwise.
what i like in gaming, and what the custom mapping scene is all about, is variety. this is in direct opposition to the comp scene as it is today.
i would love to see the comp gaming scene change. i would love to see more room for more custom maps, more variety of team layouts, and more people having more fun, instead of trying to be SUPAR SERIUS PRO DOODZ, and inevitably coming off as cocks. unfortunately i dont really think TF2 is the game for that. if you take it seriously enough, and build the skills up enough, you have to throw away half the game. a bunch of the classes, weapons, and maps become useless. the useless stuff is still useful, and loads of fun, for less serious gamers.
in this paragraph you kinda argued with me, then agreed with my point. of course there are decent people in the comp scene. i've met some, and i'm very aware that people are people, and generalizations are generalizations. i've never had a problem with individual competitive gamers i've known, my problem is with the overall scene and the prevailing attitudes. there are a lot of people making a lot of noise and bringing the whole scene in the wrong direction, IMO. i think we actually agree on this point.
my statement stands. i never said anything about the TEAM aspect. i said *SERIOUS* *COMPETITIVE*. there are some games that have been either deliberately designed as, or refined into serious competitive games. street fighter(SSF2TAHFZWTF), virtua fighter, starcraft, quake 3, counterstrike... these are games that have been tuned with the high level tournament gamer in mind, for relatively serious competition. valve, it seems to me, has designed TF2 with the general public, or at least general gamers, primarily in mind. its full of goofy cute stuff, the maps have tons of little quirks and details and rough edges, the weapons get imbalanced and re-balanced every few weeks... i dont think they're really trying to cater to the hardcore competitive players. obviously TF2 is competitive, and obviously its team-based. but it doesnt seem too serious to me. =]
some points have been made about comp gamers and why they are the way they are, about imitation of the top teams... and thats exactly my primary problem, right there. its a fundamental issue that goes to the core of what this thread is talking about, and what i feel is wrong with comp gaming these days. comp scenes seem to be all about stagnation. they find some game with some map and some restrictive settings, and park there. eventually a bunch of vocal jackasses declare that the ONLY way to play the game, and make a big whining arrogant stink when anyone suggests otherwise.
what i like in gaming, and what the custom mapping scene is all about, is variety. this is in direct opposition to the comp scene as it is today.
i would love to see the comp gaming scene change. i would love to see more room for more custom maps, more variety of team layouts, and more people having more fun, instead of trying to be SUPAR SERIUS PRO DOODZ, and inevitably coming off as cocks. unfortunately i dont really think TF2 is the game for that. if you take it seriously enough, and build the skills up enough, you have to throw away half the game. a bunch of the classes, weapons, and maps become useless. the useless stuff is still useful, and loads of fun, for less serious gamers.
flux
L1: Registered
- Jun 16, 2009
- 49
- 30
phew! ok I do agree with you now, I was a bit tired at the time, it was 2 in the morning.
I do admit of taking things wrong, I just read fast and make false accusations, but i'm only human.
I know valve has made the game for more laid back game play, thats how I was attracted to it, but I wanted to get better then average game play, thats why I play comp.
As I see comp players being picky and nip at things is because they would like to see things happen for them because the comp scene is still growing but at a small rate, I hope you agree with me on this point here:
It's hard to bring new people in because of the people who act the way they do...GotFrag for instance *slaps forehead in disgust*
Though just keep this in mind, you choose to be casual and see the game as funny and quirky, but they see it as more skilled based, and for the most part of the game it is. I sure you see that, but keeping an open mind like that doesn't create situations like this.
About being serious about it though:
look at WoW peeps I think that's dedication to play as much as they do, but also why would you spend money on that and have it be boring, well they see it as good and fun as I see it boring and stale, and I have the sympathy on how you do feel about the comp scene, I've been a straight pubber and thought comp was stupid, but I seen that I wanted to get better in the class I was playing and expand the tf2 comp community.
I only brought up the idea of team fortress to you because it creates a whole new play to gaming, and to comp play. It's not your average FPS at all! if it was I don't think I be here right now
Its not a new competitive game, but its a new style of how to play competitively. Thats why I like it, CS: S is just to simple and to easy to master and same thing over and over again, if you play a class in tf2 and get bored of it, well choose another class to play and master that, and yet there's still more classes to learn! Even though the class are restricted in comp, doesn't stop us from learning it
what i like in gaming, and what the custom mapping scene is all about, is variety. this is in direct opposition to the comp scene as it is today.
Well that's why I am here so you guys don't have to deal with the competitive players like I do, and yet here mapping for myself and for them. Somebody has to do it...I don't want you guys having your map entirely ruined because of comp. scene
If you plan to make one for the comp scene I am glad and honored to help you guys and support and also play test that would make me have a organism if I got to test play your guys map for that. Because I see beautiful maps on this site all the time!
III_demon lets just put this in the hole and just be friends and most importantly map. I'm halting on defending for comp players, for now. Right now I want to map and actually make a map i'm proud of
I do admit of taking things wrong, I just read fast and make false accusations, but i'm only human.
I know valve has made the game for more laid back game play, thats how I was attracted to it, but I wanted to get better then average game play, thats why I play comp.
As I see comp players being picky and nip at things is because they would like to see things happen for them because the comp scene is still growing but at a small rate, I hope you agree with me on this point here:
It's hard to bring new people in because of the people who act the way they do...GotFrag for instance *slaps forehead in disgust*
Though just keep this in mind, you choose to be casual and see the game as funny and quirky, but they see it as more skilled based, and for the most part of the game it is. I sure you see that, but keeping an open mind like that doesn't create situations like this.
About being serious about it though:
look at WoW peeps I think that's dedication to play as much as they do, but also why would you spend money on that and have it be boring, well they see it as good and fun as I see it boring and stale, and I have the sympathy on how you do feel about the comp scene, I've been a straight pubber and thought comp was stupid, but I seen that I wanted to get better in the class I was playing and expand the tf2 comp community.
I only brought up the idea of team fortress to you because it creates a whole new play to gaming, and to comp play. It's not your average FPS at all! if it was I don't think I be here right now
Its not a new competitive game, but its a new style of how to play competitively. Thats why I like it, CS: S is just to simple and to easy to master and same thing over and over again, if you play a class in tf2 and get bored of it, well choose another class to play and master that, and yet there's still more classes to learn! Even though the class are restricted in comp, doesn't stop us from learning it
what i like in gaming, and what the custom mapping scene is all about, is variety. this is in direct opposition to the comp scene as it is today.
Well that's why I am here so you guys don't have to deal with the competitive players like I do, and yet here mapping for myself and for them. Somebody has to do it...I don't want you guys having your map entirely ruined because of comp. scene
If you plan to make one for the comp scene I am glad and honored to help you guys and support and also play test
that would make me have a organism if I got to test play your guys map for that. Because I see beautiful maps on this site all the time!III_demon lets just put this in the hole and just be friends and most importantly map. I'm halting on defending for comp players, for now. Right now I want to map and actually make a map i'm proud of
MrAlBobo
L13: Stunning Member
- Feb 20, 2008
- 1,059
- 219
I personally think that the competitive league really need to be designed around the features of tf2. Too often I see the rules for leagues listed as: No sandman, no crits, no damage spread.
Every time I see something like that it immediately turns me off of competitive play. I mean honestly, the sandman is a minor inconvenience at worst. And as for damage spread and crits, randomness just goes along with the concept of tf2, its cartoony, goofy, so why would it be so terrible for the concept of a lucky shot to be included?
Some of the other things already addressed were the size of the teams and the need to play 5cp maps.
I agree with the people who are in favor of highlander rules, a comp league where every class gets representation is an excellent concept. And comp leagues should be able to play maps other then 5cp, I personally find these to be some of the most boring maps, and honestly what stops comp leagues from playing other modes?
CTF and tug of war payload (pl_waste) should be able to work as perfect substitutes for 5cp as both have both teams set up as equal. Even modes where one team attacks and the other defends are viable, it just requires the map is played twice and a slightly more comprehensive method of scoring.
I completely agree with the people that enjoy competitive play for the reason that playing a coordinated game with skilled people is more fun then playing with random people who may or may not know what they are doing. And, yes, this should be more fun, but it simply isn't because of how competitive tf2 is essentially a different game then "normal" tf2.
I mean honestly, as it is, the comp league does not benefit tf2. It needs to be adjusted so it is actually a league built for tf2, and not just tf2 skimmed down into a generic fps.
If there existed a league where the game itself was left unmodified, all classes were used, and any map, custom or stock was a viable choice, I would join it in an instant.
Every time I see something like that it immediately turns me off of competitive play. I mean honestly, the sandman is a minor inconvenience at worst. And as for damage spread and crits, randomness just goes along with the concept of tf2, its cartoony, goofy, so why would it be so terrible for the concept of a lucky shot to be included?
Some of the other things already addressed were the size of the teams and the need to play 5cp maps.
I agree with the people who are in favor of highlander rules, a comp league where every class gets representation is an excellent concept. And comp leagues should be able to play maps other then 5cp, I personally find these to be some of the most boring maps, and honestly what stops comp leagues from playing other modes?
CTF and tug of war payload (pl_waste) should be able to work as perfect substitutes for 5cp as both have both teams set up as equal. Even modes where one team attacks and the other defends are viable, it just requires the map is played twice and a slightly more comprehensive method of scoring.
I completely agree with the people that enjoy competitive play for the reason that playing a coordinated game with skilled people is more fun then playing with random people who may or may not know what they are doing. And, yes, this should be more fun, but it simply isn't because of how competitive tf2 is essentially a different game then "normal" tf2.
I mean honestly, as it is, the comp league does not benefit tf2. It needs to be adjusted so it is actually a league built for tf2, and not just tf2 skimmed down into a generic fps.
If there existed a league where the game itself was left unmodified, all classes were used, and any map, custom or stock was a viable choice, I would join it in an instant.
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- Feb 26, 2008
- 1,626
- 1,325
AlBobo that post was kind of terrible. You don't seem very informed on the entire situation. It's fine to criticize comp players for their downfalls but saying something like "And as for damage spread and crits, randomness just goes along with the concept of tf2, its cartoony, goofy, so why would it be so terrible for the concept of a lucky shot to be included?
" just sounds like trolling.
Basically, your post is "I don't like competitive play because it doesn't fit my tastes." Well, one would assume the latter half of that statement just by knowing the first segment.
" just sounds like trolling.
Basically, your post is "I don't like competitive play because it doesn't fit my tastes." Well, one would assume the latter half of that statement just by knowing the first segment.
flux
L1: Registered
- Jun 16, 2009
- 49
- 30
well if you look at the history of competitive play it use to have all that features, it did but there was some issue concerning skill from average game play. This is where the constant whining would come in from comp players. It did have CTF but they way it played out in American leagues did not show more potential as control point. European play CTF to an extent, which is CTF_Turbine. I'm not sure why we don't play it here, it would definitely change how comp would be. The strat is though is you have to control center so the opposing team cannot get by, well it does become a disadvantage. If that team can control that center for the entire round well, it becomes tiresome for that team trying to constantly hold them off while your team keeps dying. That's why I think the American league hates it because it becomes unfair at a certain point, unlike cp you still have advantage against the opposing team.
Crits had a big advantage with demos, and soldiers. The more hitscan classes were fine with crits. But if you watch Reptiles video:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USs0abj0e3g"]YouTube - Team Fortress 2: Reptile Frag Vid[/ame]
Watch reptile is pro yes but if someone that has never played competitive before just spams rockets and gets a crit that isn't skill honestly, Some leagues have crits like in TWL, but in CEVO and ESEA there more concerned about skill and team work then "hey guys check out this crit rocket" If you want crits you can always have your medic use the kritzkrieg in those leauges. Alot of people in matches would get 3 crits in a row, does anybody else get those in a row?
Though i'm not saying at all that comp benefits tf2. games designed for comp play benefits sales and the play of the game. I'm quite amazed on on the comp community actually designed comp play for tf2.
Also banning the sandman and other weapons is something I have nothing to say but most people do not like how the sandman because it can stun an uber...honestly the pyro can block an uber but it's not entirely wasting the uber because the medic can uber some one still, but if your hit with the sandman while ubered you stop all healing, if it was changed so it can't I think it would become unbanned and also alot of other ways to stop an uber, it's not limited to stopping it. Though be happy though that haven't banned the FaN from play and thats been a big issue since valve nerfed its damage up 10%
I can be wrong on this:
I know that huntsman isn't banned in leagues I thought it was but it seems its not.
In Comp play its about skill and team work and not solo'ing a class and winning the game for everyone that would make it like CS:S or Qauke 3
Also you can play any class in the game in comp just the hot issue is you people think it is fair to have crits, damage spread. But theres still alot of people in comp who don't want all that stuff, just some of the admins in the leagues hate those stuff and have the say, which in my mind is corrupt.
Also actually try to play in leagues before you say it all bad with rules and mods:
don't knock it if haven't tried it.
Like I said I defend you guys and them. Not trying to instigate, I leave comments for you guys saying how your maps don't get play tested in comp and then they whine about the map being bad, well they never tested it, never took the time, I defend you guys alot!
I got into mapping because of comp. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't in comp, so playing in that opens a new territories. But i'm not here entirely of comp, here because I want to map DAMNIT !!!!!
Crits had a big advantage with demos, and soldiers. The more hitscan classes were fine with crits. But if you watch Reptiles video:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USs0abj0e3g"]YouTube - Team Fortress 2: Reptile Frag Vid[/ame]
Watch reptile is pro yes but if someone that has never played competitive before just spams rockets and gets a crit that isn't skill honestly, Some leagues have crits like in TWL, but in CEVO and ESEA there more concerned about skill and team work then "hey guys check out this crit rocket" If you want crits you can always have your medic use the kritzkrieg in those leauges. Alot of people in matches would get 3 crits in a row, does anybody else get those in a row?
Though i'm not saying at all that comp benefits tf2. games designed for comp play benefits sales and the play of the game. I'm quite amazed on on the comp community actually designed comp play for tf2.
Also banning the sandman and other weapons is something I have nothing to say but most people do not like how the sandman because it can stun an uber...honestly the pyro can block an uber but it's not entirely wasting the uber because the medic can uber some one still, but if your hit with the sandman while ubered you stop all healing, if it was changed so it can't I think it would become unbanned and also alot of other ways to stop an uber, it's not limited to stopping it. Though be happy though that haven't banned the FaN from play and thats been a big issue since valve nerfed its damage up 10%
I can be wrong on this:
I know that huntsman isn't banned in leagues I thought it was but it seems its not.
In Comp play its about skill and team work and not solo'ing a class and winning the game for everyone that would make it like CS:S or Qauke 3
Also you can play any class in the game in comp
just the hot issue is you people think it is fair to have crits, damage spread. But theres still alot of people in comp who don't want all that stuff, just some of the admins in the leagues hate those stuff and have the say, which in my mind is corrupt.Also actually try to play in leagues before you say it all bad with rules and mods:
don't knock it if haven't tried it.
Like I said I defend you guys and them. Not trying to instigate, I leave comments for you guys saying how your maps don't get play tested in comp and then they whine about the map being bad, well they never tested it, never took the time, I defend you guys alot!
I got into mapping because of comp. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't in comp, so playing in that opens a new territories. But i'm not here entirely of comp, here because I want to map DAMNIT !!!!!
For a public player it's easy to just take a quick glance at competitive TF2 and think it's crap. In the end, most arguments are moot, because they have never actually played it themselves.
Arguing which style of play is better, public or competitive, is just retarded. If you're the kind of guy that just wants to relax and do whatever you want, maybe don't have time to play most days a week, fine, play on public server. If you feel like pubs aren't much of a challenge or you just want to play in a truly organised team, play some scrims. Just because you prefer one style of play, doesn't mean you have to give up on the other. Most competitive players pub regularly, I do too.
Arguing that competitive players somehow are loud mouthed, rude and not very polite is also a matter of being mis-informed, or just having a bad experience. If you have happened to have read the Gotfrag forums, it's troll heaven and shouldn't really be taken seriously, just as the Steam Forums have nothing to do with the average public TF2 players mental abilities.
I mean, I love you all, but it's amazing how many people seem to think competitive TF2 is some sort of secret e-peen boasting club where you're not invited. All you do is play an organised game against another team. You play with friends and have good time, micspam in the warmup time and goof around. It's not super serious.
Lose the idea that competitive TF2 is a different game because it's not. The only practical difference is that it's played with smaller teams and without crits, that not all public players like either way.
Now onto the custom maps matter ^_^
In a play style where you want the most organised and skillful team to win, you usually want to play on a map that both teams are equal on. On a brand new custom map, you usually can't play as well as you want to, and working out strategies is hard. And you usually don't want to wait ages before everyone has finished downloaded the map.
It's easier for a league to organise something or hand-pick the really good stuff. ETF2L has been really lazy with that, and I know American organisations have been too. There is a custom maps cup being started here in EU soon though, so then there will probably be some feedback.
---
Some CTF related talk then
The biggest reason CTF isn't played is because of the maps. Most maps are, excuse me if I come off as rude, not very well designed. Turbine is the only CTF map this far being played at all competitively, and only in EU.
Then why is Turbine such a well played map (even if it's only in EU) ? It doesn't have a very interesting layout, it looks pretty dull and has its flaws.
It's because of the size. Most CTF maps consists of a million small rooms with sharp corners, or the opposite, sniper heaven. And because of the smaller size, you can afford to move your team out to middle if you need to, and quickly fall back to defence if a spy has got your intel or they're pushing.
If you play 2fort, you need an engineer to cover the base (as it's very easy to get past the enemy team usually, unless they're all turtling) which is boring both for the poor guy being alone in the intel room, and for the other players because the game turns into a turtle fest. If you play turbine competitively (it's usually played most caps in 30 mins) you often end up with 14-8 scores, where as you play 2fort against an organised team you're lucky to get more than one cap.
Arguing which style of play is better, public or competitive, is just retarded. If you're the kind of guy that just wants to relax and do whatever you want, maybe don't have time to play most days a week, fine, play on public server. If you feel like pubs aren't much of a challenge or you just want to play in a truly organised team, play some scrims. Just because you prefer one style of play, doesn't mean you have to give up on the other. Most competitive players pub regularly, I do too.
Arguing that competitive players somehow are loud mouthed, rude and not very polite is also a matter of being mis-informed, or just having a bad experience. If you have happened to have read the Gotfrag forums, it's troll heaven and shouldn't really be taken seriously, just as the Steam Forums have nothing to do with the average public TF2 players mental abilities.
I mean, I love you all, but it's amazing how many people seem to think competitive TF2 is some sort of secret e-peen boasting club where you're not invited. All you do is play an organised game against another team. You play with friends and have good time, micspam in the warmup time and goof around. It's not super serious.
Lose the idea that competitive TF2 is a different game because it's not. The only practical difference is that it's played with smaller teams and without crits, that not all public players like either way.
Now onto the custom maps matter ^_^
In a play style where you want the most organised and skillful team to win, you usually want to play on a map that both teams are equal on. On a brand new custom map, you usually can't play as well as you want to, and working out strategies is hard. And you usually don't want to wait ages before everyone has finished downloaded the map.
It's easier for a league to organise something or hand-pick the really good stuff. ETF2L has been really lazy with that, and I know American organisations have been too. There is a custom maps cup being started here in EU soon though, so then there will probably be some feedback.
---
Some CTF related talk then
The biggest reason CTF isn't played is because of the maps. Most maps are, excuse me if I come off as rude, not very well designed. Turbine is the only CTF map this far being played at all competitively, and only in EU.
Then why is Turbine such a well played map (even if it's only in EU) ? It doesn't have a very interesting layout, it looks pretty dull and has its flaws.
It's because of the size. Most CTF maps consists of a million small rooms with sharp corners, or the opposite, sniper heaven. And because of the smaller size, you can afford to move your team out to middle if you need to, and quickly fall back to defence if a spy has got your intel or they're pushing.
If you play 2fort, you need an engineer to cover the base (as it's very easy to get past the enemy team usually, unless they're all turtling) which is boring both for the poor guy being alone in the intel room, and for the other players because the game turns into a turtle fest. If you play turbine competitively (it's usually played most caps in 30 mins) you often end up with 14-8 scores, where as you play 2fort against an organised team you're lucky to get more than one cap.
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Rikka
L5: Dapper Member
- Feb 10, 2009
- 208
- 388
I once heard that the reason competitive CS has a fairly good relationship with Valve is because Valve gave them the options they needed for tournaments while not screwing up the competitive side of the game (let's ignore that economic pricing system). Is that true, and does it extend to TF2?
If so, it's an attitude a lot of people (Al Bobo) could follow from. Just because you don't care for it doesn't mean you need to screw around with it. If you're really interested in something like Highlander leagues you should push for getting those up yourself instead of just telling comp players the way they play is wrong and having them rearrange the leagues to fit your tastes.
As for the problem at hand, general jackassery aside, looking through the topics at gotfrag and reading the posts here make it seem the biggest one is that comp players, resistant to change as any competitive group for anything is, take months before they can actually fairly look at a map and say anything besides "too big".
If so, it's an attitude a lot of people (Al Bobo) could follow from. Just because you don't care for it doesn't mean you need to screw around with it. If you're really interested in something like Highlander leagues you should push for getting those up yourself instead of just telling comp players the way they play is wrong and having them rearrange the leagues to fit your tastes.
As for the problem at hand, general jackassery aside, looking through the topics at gotfrag and reading the posts here make it seem the biggest one is that comp players, resistant to change as any competitive group for anything is, take months before they can actually fairly look at a map and say anything besides "too big".
Yes. I think everyone knows that Valve caters to public players first for obvious reasons, even "competitive" games like CS or Quake have much larger public communities. But Valve has given the competitive community a lot of tools to improve it, for example ways to set class limits with a simple server cfg. Turning off crits and random damage. Stopwatch mode for A/D CP and PL maps. Warmup time. And a lot of smaller things as well.
Competitive TF2 is not played with any mods or other 3rd party content at all.
One thing they haven't done though is make a server cvar to turn off First Blood in Arena, which basically killed off that game mode in competitive play. And yes, Arena was played a fair bit competitively before.
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