The Competitive Player: A Custom Mapper's Perspective

Ida

deer
aa
Jan 6, 2008
2,289
1,372
Please don't make huge judgements on every competitive player just because some tards on gotfrag didn't like your map.

Of course, I'm also basing my judgement largely on other unrelated experiences, not to mention what people have said so far in this thread.
 

drp

aa
Oct 25, 2007
2,273
2,628
there's a lot of over generalizations here.

sure there are idiots on both sides of the issue here. comp players can be great feedback just like pub players, but every bunch has their handful of bad apples.

also, i dont think a map has to be done to any specific group. a great map will be suitable for any type of play, comp or pub.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
Wow, I just now noticed this topic. I have a lot to say.

First off I really am sorry Muffin! I've posted for people before and have asked and I made a stupid and just dropped your topic in there one day without thinking. Usually maps go over better when someone else besides the mapper presents them, but frankly no map topics there are actually useful. They don't pay attention to the mapping forum, play any of the maps, or actually intend to test anything there. Sad but true, really your topic there is more of a "Hey what's up, this map exists and if it gets awesome in the next 3 months with no playtesting from you assholes and is still acceptable by your finicky standards you'll be playing it".

Next... why in the hell do some of you who don't play competitively have such a nasty, negative attitude about comp. players? Some of the posts in this topic concerning how comp. players may act have been borderline flames, and it's unreasonable to think that anyone who says things like that has an unbiased opinion. I don't want to name names, but in general the comp. community is full of tools and dbags because they all try to be the stereotype team: same classes, 6 people, playing granalands all the time, acting like an asshole. The reason why the comp. community is failing to hard at the moment is that the idiots who try and fail at that sort of thing, instead of making a team and doing what works for them, quit their teams and forfeit matches and bitch out casual players. It's bad.

I am one of the few competitive players who also maps. I may not be a great mapper, but my experiences playing and analyzing custom tf2 maps is up there with the best of them. Every map I play I think of in terms of both casual and competitive tf2, and I try to be an advocate for balancing towards comp. play. Usually, though, that fails, because comp. players, like I said, don't really test maps.



All that said, please keep an open mind to mapping for competitive tf2. The day WILL come when the nearly dead competitive community comes to mappers looking for something game-changing to keep their game alive. Until then, I will keep trying to make the guys who have power in this twisted comp. community tf2 harbors to wake up and play some new maps. That's all I have to do with competitive tf2 anymore, and I'm here for you guys' benefit.
 
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Zanpa

L4: Comfortable Member
Jan 17, 2009
164
43
Thus, at the moment, cp_mudbath will remain a pub-focused map, simply because a large part of pub players are nice and appreciative.

Actually, I think it's more like this : "the 5% of pub players that play custom maps are nice and appreciative".
Most pub players either don't play custom maps, or just play them because they are in their favourite server's mapcycle.
A recent thread in SPUF showed that a lot of players cancel the download if the game is loading a custom map. They stick to official ones.

The day WILL come when the nearly dead competitive community comes to mappers looking for something game-changing to keep their game alive.

And then, Aurora will become the most-played map in comp. :laugh:
 
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A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
aa
Nov 2, 2007
4,775
7,669
The day WILL come when the nearly dead competitive community comes to mappers looking for something game-changing to keep their game alive.
That's not a day to rejoice and thank them for looking to your maps and build them something...
I hope that day is the day all mappers who have had bad experiences collectively give the finger and turn their backs to let the comp scene rot in it's grave.
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
Next... why in the hell do some of you who don't play competitively have such a nasty, negative attitude about comp. players? Some of the posts in this topic concerning how comp. players may act have been borderline flames

As far as my intent on making this post, it wasn't really to flame per say but to bring attention to the piss poor attitude a lot of people have in comp even though they want new maps.

I personally love playing organized TF2. I just haven't done it in a while.

I guess the purpose of the post is a bit lost by this page, but really, it illustrates as a whole why many people who map could care less what competitive players want and what they do to enjoy the game due to the way they present themselves. And I don't blame any mapper for that.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
ABS, saying things like that is why the two communities won't get along. They may be pigheaded, inconsolable assholes, but in general, mappers aren't like that. Don't go down to their level. If your map happens to work out for their type of gameplay, you should do what you can, without going out of your way, to support them as a part of your map's playerbase.

Please don't turn this topic into a flame war, it's a topic about how you guys should deal with comp players.

Also, read what I just posted on GotFrag: http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/406189/?cpage=1#comment_9322869
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
Like I said, on my end I'm doing what I can, but if I were to link them this topic and say "look what they think of you guys, don't you want to fix this", they would just see you all bitching just as much as they do ALL the time and nothing would be solved.

Please support my topic there if you have an account, it's not going to be easy to get their attention off of themselves and onto the maps.
 

Ida

deer
aa
Jan 6, 2008
2,289
1,372
First off I really am sorry Muffin!

As I can't possibly stress enough, I don't blame you. I was going to post a topic there anyway. Sometimes someone else has to push you into the cold water when you're doubting it.

Anyway, I think I'm going to make a post in your topic, just for some support.
 

III_Demon

L2: Junior Member
Sep 28, 2008
57
29
Wow, I just now noticed this topic. I have a lot to say.

and thanx for saying it. i'm glad there are people actually on that side of the argument.

my first reply in this thread was admittedly a bit of a knee-jerk rant. =] i've got a little bitterness about competitive gaming in general, i guess.

i love competitive gaming, in theory. i live for a good challenge. i'd love to get together with like-minded people and take it to higher levels. in actual practice, the competitive gaming scene is so damn full of loud idiots, its hard to get near it without being annoyed. most of those guys seem like bullies who never had the physical intimidation to win on the schoolyard, so now they're making up for it in games. the competitive counterstrike obsession helped to kill LAN parties, and generally separate hardcore PC gamers into warring factions of nerds, instead of the unity i enjoyed back in the quake days.

AFAIK TF2 comp games are played 6v6, which to me seems like a terrible attempt to turn TF2 into something its not. IMO its the comp gaming scene that needs to change, not TF2. so far i've had zero interest in mapping for comp players, but if i see sane people who enjoy variety AND hardcore levels of play, it'll get me excited.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
Demon it would probably be to your benefit, then, if I expanded on what the problem with the competitive tf2 community is...

They all try so hard to imitate the success of pro teams like coL, 20id, EG, and loaded that they don't have original thoughts. Classes like the Heavy, Pyro, Sniper, etc really ARE useful at times and they usually get frowned upon so heavily by these pretenders that as a whole the community rejects them. The really good players, who are at the top of their game and make the very strategies that everyone else emulates, are all for class variety. The same thing goes with maps. People like TheFragile and oPlaid post on the GotFrag map forums quite a bit, despite the fact that most people think they would hate new maps. Really, it's just that most players use the exact same strategies that the pros do. It all trickles down to the lower level comp players who, when they fail at being original, begin to rage and even quit, causing the major failure of clan loyalty in tf2 that makes most teams break apart within weeks of their creation.

That's about it.
 

Guardian

L1: Registered
Jul 27, 2009
44
9
All that said, please keep an open mind to mapping for competitive tf2. The day WILL come when the nearly dead competitive community comes to mappers looking for something game-changing to keep their game alive. .

I'm placing my money on a non-linear push CP map (you know like grinder and desertfortress) making it's way into comp.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
I sure hope so guardian. Grinder especially is great for comp, it just might need testing. ^_^
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
Also, at the risk of sounding like a jackass but many, many maps made my "pro" mappers blow gameplay wise. Pub or comp play. Some reach hydro status and only a few reach badwater, well, grandlands, gpit status. (waste, yukon, furnace, follower)

I really hate how most comp players won't play these custom maps.
 

Shmitz

Old Hat
aa
Nov 12, 2007
1,128
746
Mar, if you want there to be any hope that someday most people on this forum will respect comp players and give their playstyle due consideration, stop posting. You give them all a bad name. Most of the time when someone starts badmouthing the comp scene, I have to say, "They're not all like Mar".

Really, nearly every time you post something, you hurt your cause more than you help it.
 

Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
aa
May 19, 2008
1,767
2,820
I'm getting a hearty chuckle out of reading this thread. Step back for a sec and take a look at this threads. Your un-necessary hatred and ignorance of comp play and the putting of pub play on a pedestal is funny.

From my perspective the truth of the matter is that the ratio of nice players to dickheads remains the same in both comp play and pub play. The only difference is that comp plays know how the gameplay of TF2 works and pubbers could care less.

We're NOT putting pub play on a pedestal.

We're NOT hating comp play, but rather, comp players like YOU that put comp on a pedestal and trash talk pub play.

Yes, there are dickheads that play pub and dickheads that play comp.

But NO, pub players, especially ones on this forum making maps DO KNOW how the gameplay of TF2 works and DO CARE.

And like Shmitz said, you're not helping your case at all.
 

MangyCarface

Mapper
aa
Feb 26, 2008
1,626
1,325
All mappers should design for all walks of life. 32p, 24p, 12p... Hating on any aspect of your audience is an unwise move. There are ways to compromise...

That being said, the comp community needs a few things before it can start testing maps for real:
1. More stable teams. TF2 teams rearrange, drop, fall apart, and are created even in the middle of seasons. It's unprofessional.
2. A wider spread of evenly matched teams. It can't just be 6 or 7 teams that dominate with a second tier following behind...
3. Better admin and league work. Leagues have repeatedly dropped the ball in terms of rosters, matchups, etc etc etc.

If that falls into place, there will be an atmosphere conducive to testing maps eventually.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
ah ah ah ah! what did I say!
Anyhow, back on topic now, strictly no marguing!

You have continued marguing!

I'd imagine that if there is amy problem to be tackled it's that comp players need to actually start to test early maps, it's a pain because early maps can be horrible to play, and hard to get to know. I dont want to play many alpha maps, I generally avoid gamedays because I play so little tf2 I want to make sure my enjoyment isnt hampered by maps that haven't been tested thoroughly yet. and i'll bet most comp players don't want their pugs or full league games hampered by untested maps.