The Competitive Player: A Custom Mapper's Perspective

Lord Ned

L420: High Member
Feb 11, 2008
421
174
while pub players don't even own mics.

The fuck does that make me then? I hate comp, and I use my mic. What am I?

Cite your sources. I've never seen Valve say it and just saying that this game is meant for 24 player severs is bull. Prove it to me.


Maybe because the create-a-server default is 24 and their tools by default use 24 and support 24 until you go get plugins that let you run 32? How about that for meant for 24...

And in this circle of logic, Valve designed the game for 9 classes (note the 9 player class choices?) and not 6...
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
Cite your sources. I've never seen Valve say it and just saying that this game is meant for 24 player severs is bull. Prove it to me.

Listened to the developer comentaries?? read interviews with valve? ...
the default server setting is 24... which is what valve will playtest at for the vast majority. it's quite clear their maps are based around 24 players not 32 or 12. especially as you have to mod your server to get more than 24....

Engage your brain next time. otherwise you'll just end up looking like a retard.



(just like this time)


Anyhow, back on topic now, strictly no marguing!
 

NovaSilisko

L42: Life, the Universe and Everything
aa
Feb 3, 2009
502
270
Can I hit Mar with something heavy? Please?
 

ChronoTriggerFan

L420: High Member
Feb 3, 2008
434
73
It becomes painfully easy to understand that its meant to be a 24 player game when the default server size is 24. It's also painfully obvious that they did not design it around 12 player games because there happen to be more than 6 classes, and more than 3-4 of them are used.
 
Apr 19, 2009
4,460
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TF2F has been one of the only comp servers that I have seen really take a good look at customs and I thank them for that greatly.

EDIT: Mar your first post was good, now you just yourself over, again...
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
Can I hit Mar with something heavy? Please?

Ok, but first tell me what the Cyrillic text on your avatar means. I can't figure out what it means in Russian or Cyrillic.

And thanks for finally backing up this point in like the first time ever.

@Lord Ned: There are many reasons why comp players use 6v6, see this thread, but think about co-ordinating 9 people to get online at the same time and the noise chatter on vent. ouch.

@topic: I think most comp players are annoying bastards (TF2F) but some can give very good and sound advice (TF2F). Now if we could get a comp mapper that maps alot (I don't). Panfrie is the only one I can think off.

A big problem is that comp players don't give custom maps a chance. I wanted to do a scrim with 1 custom map but another clanie on the other team didn't and the resulting argument got be kicked from a clan.

Yes, I got kicked from a clan becuase I wanted to play a custom map.
Got kick from a clan Because I wanted to play a custom map.
Because I wanted to play a custom map.
Custom map.

But then again, pubbers aren't that much better unless your on a custom maps only server.
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
I said "in mind", not "for". I'm sure they don't blow off the comp community, but still, creating for the majority of people who purchase their game comes before that small whiny percent.

I donno, Valve had said they're pretty much making new 5cp maps for competitive players for the upcoming patches.

And I'd like to direct anyone interested to this post on GF: http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/406029/

Competitive players do want to grow their community, though their attitudes would say otherwise. Valve has implemented many things in TF2 that the comp community has desired (options from TFTrue making it into the game shortly after so people don't have to mod it to do what they want).
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
Now if we could get a comp mapper that maps alot (I don't). Panfrie is the only one I can think off.

In regards to the topic, I actually have started a new 5cp. I guess that's a "lot" (last map being in April). :p

Call me a masochist. I guess I just like 5cp maps.
 

owly-oop

im birb
aa
Apr 14, 2009
819
1,215
random pub person: this maps sucks
mapper: why?
pub: because this and this is not balanced, makign this and this etc

comp: this map sucks dick
mapper: care to say why
comp: because you are a noob at mapping and you suck at life
 

Grimes

L1: Registered
Jun 4, 2009
45
4
How exactly are they starved for maps? Looking at the twl rules they have 9 maps available. They only have 1 attack/defend map (Gravel Pit) and 2 ctf (both of which are custom) and the rest are Linear CP. Its fairly evident that they want a single continuous round, the map must be mirrored (aside from one exception), and both sides are tasked with accomplishing the same objective. Competition leagues have ALWAYS started with a mostly complete map list and they eventually dwindle it down to a few favorite stock maps and some customs that fit their needs.

To be honest, aside from what I listed above, I don't know what comp players "need" to have in a map that makes it "good" for comp play.
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
We don't get paid. We don't need to take trash talk from competitive players who think they're god's gift to TF2. We're the ones making the map, not them. So they should post something useful that can help the map out or close the browser.

I read up to this, scrolled down and hit the thanks button then kept reading
Pretty mush agree with everything...other then Granery being a good map...personally, I find it incredibly boring.

Also, I agree with you. I'm probably one of the few comp players that advocates playing custom maps and I even got kicked off one clan becuase of my insistence to play well made custom maps such as waste, furnace, yukon, greenvalley and such. Let me make a note here that a good comp map is a good pub map.

But there is a problem. Those map that I just mentioned are also not played by the pub community. Every time they went up on our pub sever rotation it killed the server so hard we eventually took them off. Both pub and comp players wouldn't play them.

@political gamer: I know why you and others like 2f2f but it's too goofy and mindless for me. I, and the majority of comp players, started out as pub players and eventually saw the potential of TF2 and were sick of mindless, unorganized pub play. We then sought out more competitive and co-ordinated PUGs (pick up games). At that point we began to crave a true team of players that we would play with and build team chemistry and truly have organized play. Now it just happens to be that many comp players, and pub players to, truth be told, many people on the Internet become asshats. For pub player this mean stupid players that like to swear alot, and for comp players to become elitist pricks.

In short, the Internet is filled with dumbfucks, the only difference between comp player and pun player dumbfucks is how they express their dumbfuckness.

The most intelligent post made by Mar so far, and something I agree with completely.

And uhh...anyone else getting a little tired of the 2f2f plugs?...I mean...its in your sig, no need to keep mentioning it <_<

you have to mod your server to get more than 24....

Pretty sure this is no longer the case...unless server providers are pre-modding their servers before you buy them...
 

a2h

L2: Junior Member
Sep 18, 2008
93
30
"your map fucking sucks"

Real quote. From a pubber.

It's this kind of feedback which explains why I lost motivation to work on tyrol for a couple of months.
 

Open Blade

L420: High Member
Nov 30, 2007
439
34
I've never even heard of 6vs6 competitions, how weird. But IMO, TF2 was simply not designed for 6 players against 6 players. At that amount, you don't even have one of each class. I don't think you get the full fun from the game unless you at least have one of each class playing.

As for feedback, I don't really care for much of it from players only. Most of us mappers play also, even if it's not in a league, and we can still play at a high level and can give our inputs to the designer and to me, that is more then enough feedback.

But no matter how solid a design is, there will be people that hate it, and people that love it. You have to know that always.

For the record, I enjoy playing all of your maps pickle, they're always very well made and fun to play.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
As far as i'm aware, if a map compliments any non-league standard class it's unbalanced and will never be accepted on that scene. That would atleast explain why competitive players have no love for A/D, a mode that justifies the use of Spy's and Engineers. 5 cp maps also generally do not cater well for the engineer, what with the dynamic battlefront.

Basically if they're confronted more than a couple times with either being outnumbered or out classed, they bitch and moan.

I find the competitive scene just makes things difficult for themselves. Especially when it comes to the 6vs6 setup they love so much. The game was designed in mind, by countering and mixing unit tactics. This just isn't possible with such a limited team of players. 6vs6 forces them into a scenario a map would likely not have been designed for, and as such causes them to resort to the most durable/dextrous classes available in the game.

By removing certain class elements from the game you remove the need for certain map design features. Such as already discussed, the requirement for (atleast one) decent engi spot. I just find this limits the experiences a map offers players and strips TF2 down to the barest minimum it has to offer any individual.

I want to offer people surprises and experiences. Not the same old dish each night, where you get killed by a demo, double soldier-medic combo (If you cry about being killed by the same sentry farm in pub play, then go running back to the comp scene, you're completely missing the point of TF2). This is my motivation to avoid bothering with the competitive scene. Even to this day i find new locations and tactics being employed by players on the stock maps, and if competitive players can't find a server with a decent amount of teamwork or mic users, then they just arn't looking hard enough. It's absurd to say pubbers never have mics, it would appear i'm not the only one who has a mic in this thread either. I just think i have better things to do with my time than appease self rightious, pious individuals.

Like have a wank.

(it should be noted that grazr has no ill feelings for the competitive scene, but facts are facts; and with every arguement posed in defence of the actions of competitive players and their demands, these are completely blown away by redundancy to the mass public crowd; and although this is a boring and repetative statement, that does not stop it from being true).

At the risk of sounding spiteful, if the competitive scene wants maps designed in a certain way then they can pick up Hammer and do it themselves, and stop crying about and abusing the 'experts' so much.
 

Ida

deer
aa
Jan 6, 2008
2,289
1,372
After some feedback on cp_mudbath talking about how it would fit the competitive community, I decided I wanted to try presenting it to them. Now, Fox did it before I could, but I thank him for that anyway (I was just being a little slow about it).

I got two friendly-ish and helpful posts. One of which was from Mangy. The rest were just trolls and people applauding some kind of superior troll (who gained +20 frags for his efforts). Well, to be fair, a couple stated that they liked it. With the majority of the reception being like that, I immediately decided to turn my back on this forum. I just provided them with a link they can check out if they're not too busy waving their dicks around in Granlands.

Well, what I'm saying just boils down to what everyone else has said; they're asshats so I don't want to make maps for them. Maybe I act too much on people's attitude rather than potential helpfulness (I'm sure a nice clan leader could do a PUG and get good feedback), but that's kind of how I am. I don't want to give free gifts to people I don't like. Thus, at the moment, cp_mudbath will remain a pub-focused map, simply because a large part of pub players are nice and appreciative.
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
But no matter how solid a design is, there will be people that hate it, and people that love it. You have to know that always.

Oh, I have that etched on the back of my skull, but it's still worth quoting. With my library of maps there's something for everyone usually.

I think the issue I bring up here is a little deeper than that though. Even if a map is legitimately on par with something like Badlands it's going to go through a furnace with comp players stoking it. If it's better than Badlands... who knows, maybe comp players might start being nice? (lol)
 

Memento Mori

L2: Junior Member
Mar 25, 2008
61
11
Please don't make huge judgements on every competitive player just because some tards on gotfrag didn't like your map.
 

Spike

L10: Glamorous Member
Feb 13, 2008
716
82
Competitive gamming sucks. That's enough reason for not mapping for it