Carving? why the hatred

Tayrtahn · Apr 29, 2009

no means nomad said:
It might be fast, but it introduces an insane number of problems if you ever want to alter the wall or the door.

I have to say, I haven't experienced any so far.

I only ever carve a single grid-aligned rectangular block from a single grid-aligned rectangular wall. I'm always looking in the side and top views and have yet to see an extra vertex or polygon show up. Altering the door is no different than it would be if I had Cut the hole instead - just a matter of resizing the three blocks that make up the wall.
The carve tool is fine for big, main-layout purposes. It should not be used to make details or do any work at small grid sizes.

I've actually caused more errors with the Vertex tool than with the Carve tool.

Silly convex shapes.

jpr · Apr 30, 2009

Carving has never, NEVER caused any problems with me, no microbrushes, no oddities, nothing. I think it's fine to use it if the brushes you carve aren't too complicated

Alero · Jul 1, 2009

I once carved a doorway and realized I forgot to align the wall. For a second, I panicked. Then I remember I had an undo button. Problem solved.

I can't tell you how many stupid angled roofs I had to redo because of the crappy vertex tool. After I found carve, all I did was carve the angle, flipped the carve over and do the other side. It saves so much time.

Earl · Jul 1, 2009

I can't tell you how many stupid angled roofs I had to redo because of the crappy vertex tool. After I found carve, all I did was carve the angle, flipped the carve over and do the other side. It saves so much time.

In that case, the clip tool is actually what you want to use.

DJive · Jul 1, 2009

Alero said:
I can't tell you how many stupid angled roofs I had to redo because of the crappy vertex tool. After I found carve, all I did was carve the angle, flipped the carve over and do the other side. It saves so much time.

Although vertex may take a bit longer, your brushwork is pristine =) and you shouldn't run into a single problem ever unless you've done something wrong.

grid is everything imo, and vertex is wonderful

Axolotl · Jul 1, 2009

If carving is said to be the antithesis of good mapping, what would be its opposite?

I've seen much talk against the notion of carving, so what would one do if they would like to create a door, a window, or anything requiring some sort of holey notion?

DJive · Jul 1, 2009

Axolotl said:
I've seen much talk against the notion of carving, so what would one do if they would like to create a door, a window, or anything requiring some sort of holey notion?

use Vertex.

Anda02 · Jul 1, 2009

I use the carve tool on only the most simple of surfaces. Pretty much only doors and walls. I have found that unless it is a rectangle carving a rectangle, things screw up. But most of the time I just forget about carve anyway and do everything manually.

Axolotl · Jul 1, 2009

DJive said:
use Vertex.

How curt. Would you please care to elaborate?

I've witnessed vicarious and verbose discussion against the use of Carve; I would expect such and the same in regards to the Vertex tool as well.

( Search yields little, save for an ancient thread concerning a reply Icarus had once made, and the Developer's Wiki serves only to explain the function of the tool itself. What is there to know about vertexes and why is it superior--- asides the headache and hassle that carving seems to carry with each use. )

TMP · Jul 1, 2009

Vertex is superior to doing stuff when combined with the clipping tool because you have total control over the outcomes brushes. You don't with the carve. Generally. Plus, everything tends to be neater in the end with vertex and clip, making vis and vrad not throw giant fits of rage.

DJive · Jul 1, 2009

Axolotl said:
How curt. Would you please care to elaborate?

I've witnessed vicarious and verbose discussion against the use of Carve; I would expect such and the same in regards to the Vertex tool as well.

thats because carve is horrible, vertex is not.

If something works great there is not need to have discussions on it left and right where as something is horribly broken *for the most part* and people hear its bad they wonder why.

With vertex
always be on the grid.
less leaks
better brushwork
less brushes used
better faces

With Carve
gives a TON of brushes for simple work
can create leaks
can create compiling errors
is sloppy brushwork
never on grid

A ledge with a 40 foot drop. One side has stairs and the other is well.. a straight drop.

The end result is the same either side however one of the two sides is much more efficient and less painful.

Radaka · Jul 1, 2009

DJive said:
A ledge with a 40 foot drop. One side has stairs and the other is well.. a straight drop.

The end result is the same either side however one of the two sides is much more efficient and less painful.

This is a PERFECT example of the difference between the two.

Open Blade · Jul 1, 2009

I've never carved. Read somewhere when I first started doing this it was bad and never tried. As for time saved, that's relative I guess. This past 2 years now that I have been working in Hammer, I've gotten the tools down pretty good. I found other ways to "save time". You might carve a doorway into a wall where I will just copy and past another doorway/wall from another area of my map and alter it if I need to.

Anther reason why I prefer to build alot of my walls in sections is so that I can change each height separately because I do alot of texture combinations using the metal walls and sometimes you need to move one section up or down and sometimes both, to get that texture to fit the height just right. In fact, most of may walls with doors and windows will be made of 3 or 4 different height brushes, for a single level.

Terr · Aug 3, 2009

Often I wish I could carve a perfectly-rectangular hole into a plain-old-wall, but then it turns out there's some clip brush or huge trigger volume for a fog controller, etc...

Maybe there's a way to restrict the carve operation to only specific selected targets, but I haven't found it yet. (Besides moving the whole assemblage somewhere else, carving there, and taking the results back, or maybe some cordoning/visgrouping...)

________________

I think it boils down to that carve is difficult in practice to use correctly... situations where it can be safely used are rare. when you do use it correctly it doesn't save you that much time, and when you use it incorrectly things go insanely wrong.

Edit: Oh, damn, sorry, I was searching for something different and didn't think this would be such a big necro.

Waif · Aug 3, 2009

I once used the carve tool to make pipes in my css gungame map.
Kinda stuffed everything up because its very hard to edit them after you have carved.

Spike · Aug 3, 2009

Carve is bad. Just belive it.

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Carving? why the hatred

Tayrtahn

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jpr

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Earl

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DJive

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Axolotl

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Terr

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