Novint Falcon Vs. Mouse contest!!

The Gentlemanne

L4: Comfortable Member
Jun 18, 2009
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well the CEO of novint posted on steamforums I thought I would forward it here.

Hey all, I'm Novint's CEO. There has been a lot of debate on other threads about the effectiveness of the Novint Falcon compared to a mouse. I think this is an important concept (and this is a long post to give such a complicated subject fair analysis).

I would say, though, that I think it is only a small part of the value for many users. One of the main things the Falcon is strongest at is creating a sense of Immersion and actually 'being in the game'. Here are some quotes reflecting that idea.

• Wired: "Half-Life 2 suddenly becomes an entirely different game"
• PC Magazine: "After experiencing Half-Life 2 this way, I honestly don't want to play the game any other way."
• Tech-Gaming: "…Next, we tried Haptic-Life 2… Overall, it was a completely engrossing experience and made going back to playing Half-Life without the Falcon completely lifeless."
• IGN: "The Half Life 2 experience with the Falcon is arguably worth the price of admission in and of itself"
• TechDigest: “How do you make Left 4 Dead even better than it already is? The answer: play it with the Novint Falcon pistol grip mouse controller.”
• Joystiq: “We're big fans of Novint's Falcon controller … We were even more excited after we wrapped our mitts around the new pistol grip and played a little Left 4 Dead.”
• Arstechnica: “We've always been impressed by the Falcon experience and it's a blast with Left 4 Dead”
• Associated Press: “It's so real; it's hard not to feel a pang of guilt when splattering foes.”

There are hundreds more articles, quotes and user reviews with similar sentiments if you look into it. You can start on Novint's boards or you can look at media reviews and stories.
http://home.novint.com/news/media_coverage.php


I think the added Immersion and fun is what is going to be most important to many people. The Falcon controls are very similar to a mouse's controls, and it is instantly useable, and easy to quickly pick up, making games much more fun. I give demo after demo after demo at trade shows, and universally people have very good first experiences. Even after only a minute of playing, they're in using it well and having a good time, amazed at the level of touch and realism the Falcon brings.



Ok, all of that being said, I do think there are many users who want to play competitively with the Falcon. A fair question then (and the reason for starting this thread), is "can I play as competitively with the Falcon as I can with my mouse?"

The answer is yes, with practice. Everything you can do with the mouse you can do with the Falcon. Many things you can actually do better with the Falcon. I know this to be true from personal experience, and we plan to show it rather than just say it, in our contest where we'll be giving away free Falcons if you can beat a Novint employee who will be using a Falcon. I think one of the biggest misconceptions of the Falcon is that it is like a joystick or that it generally won't be competitive against the mouse.

Here is some explanation of how and why the Falcon is more competitive than a mouse with practice.

First off, the control for the Falcon is basically the same as the control with a mouse. It is direct position control - you move right-left, the cross hair moves right-left in a one-to-one fashion. You move up-down, the cross hair moves up-down. With the mouse, when you get to the edge of your workspace you have to pick it up and move it. With the Falcon, when you get to the edge of your workspace, you just push against a virtual spring, and you keep moving. That's a big advantage when you learn how to use it. It's almost like having a reactive rubber band surrounding your mousepad. Also, you feel things in the game that you don't get with a mouse. When you're shot, for example, you feel exactly what direction it precisely came from, and you can react quicker. I've lived in TF2 when a pyro blasted me using a Falcon where I would have died with a mouse. You learn to react from the feel of it, and you can instantly turn to where you feel the attack coming from, knowing where your opponent is exactly before you start moving, rather than knowing generally where your opponent is, and then needing to find him visually. Forces help your brain to react better. You feel a subtle forces when you uncloak as a spy or when as your sticky bombs are becoming ready to fire, letting you feel more precisely when you can strike. It's a small incremental bonus, but you get used to it, and all of the added feedback and understanding makes you better. The control itself has advantages too. Ultimately, given the outer workspace usage of the Falcon, where you are pushing against virtual springs, you can spin faster than even a movement on a 4000 dpi mouse. If you really crank up the spin rate, and practice a lot, you'll be able to be faster and better.

I think, ironically, that the debate will shift in the future to whether the Falcon should be allowed in professional competitions given the advantages it gives.

It generally takes about 20 hours of play to get to a point where you are as competitive with a Falcon as you are with the mouse. Some people it will be 10 hours, some 30. It depends on how skilled you are, how quick you pick new things up, and how competitive you really want to be (vs just enjoying a new compelling experience)

Below, in another post, is a summary of some of the other questions people have had on the boards and elsewhere.


To show that one can learn to play competitively with the Falcon as well as the mouse, we're going to show you how one of our employees, JohnT, (i.e. a falconer) fairs against mousers in a contest. We didn't hire a ringer for the contest - he's been an employee for over a year and is a good TF2 player. In his words last week "I'm now better in TF2 in all but one class than I am with the mouse. Also, I'm better with the scout than I think I ever could be with a mouse, no matter how much I practiced." This is coming from an experienced player. Last time I played with him, he was at about an 8 to 1 kill to death ratio, which isn't shabby. Usually he's around 3 or 4 to 1 (usually I'm around 1 to 1 when I'm playing one of my preferred classes). John's a good player with a mouse or Falcon, but he is beatable if you're really good (and if you are, might as well get a free Falcon). If you get a 20 to 1 kill ratio, you're better than John and you probably can beat him, but you'll still see that he is competitive.


I'll post details on the contest itself in the next post.

thx all, tomnovint, ceo

Here is what we were envisioning for the contest rules.

-- It will be a contest in Team Fortress 2, where people using the mouse can play against a Novint employee, John T, using the Falcon.

-- We'll be hosting the contest on Edge Gamer servers (http://www.edgegamers.org) - they're a very cool group with lots of members playing online games. They will host the servers and moderate the contest. You probably will recognize them from their servers which have the "=(eGO)=" name.

-- If you can beat John, we will send you a Falcon/pistol grip for free, if you cover shipping costs. Even if John loses every game, there's no limit to how many Falcon's we'll send in the contest.

-- It will be 1 v 1 matches. I know that TF2 is a team based game and a lot of the fun and skill is in how teams match up and how the classes are so balanced, but the point of the contest is to test controller skills.

-- The class will be the same for both players to keep it fair, and it will be chosen at random for each match of each game. Everyone has a favorite class, and even if John were using a mouse, it would be a big disadvantage for everyone to have their favorite class against John needing to match. Clearly we can't eliminate TF2 skill vs mouse skill - and given we don't have a local professional player we'll try to focus on mouse/Falcon skill vs TF2 skill as much as possible. Keep in mind John's in the same situation - he doesn't get to pick his favorite either.

-- It will be an arena map, with a control point that opens up after a set time to keep things moving (for spy vs spy matches, etc). The overall game will be best 2 of 3 matches. We'll verify with Edge Gamers on server settings before the match (crits and damage spread disabled, etc).

-- we reserve the right to modify how we're running the contest. We haven't done it before, so we might need to make changes as we get into it.

We'll announce match times shortly. We'll let people post to this thread after I post that we've started accepting people into the queue (keep an eye out for that post if you want to be in the contest), in order to join the contest. At that point you'll simply post that you're in. You'll then go into the queue, and we'll send a PM telling you about when you'll be able to play. Assuming you're ready and available, we'll get you into the match, and you can have your shot at John ;) We'll keep moving through the queue during the match times.

Let me know your thoughts. Should be fun

thx all, tomnovint

Here are some of the other common questions people have been asking, and my thoughts and opinions on them...

"But the Falcon will never be better than my 4000 DPI mouse. The Falcon doesn't have that level of resolution"

The Falcon is a different type of control scheme, so strategies that work well for a mouse don't necessarily work well with other controllers. Super high resolution mice were developed to account for flaws in mice, to make them more competitive in gaming. They also take a lot of practice, to get good with them. The Falcon is different in how it works, so the tuning and learning you do with it is different than that of a mouse. Super high resolution isn't needed with the Falcon's control scheme.



"Won't the recoil forces screw up your aim? Do you need to turn forces down to where they're barely noticeable to be competitive, which would defeat much of the purpose?"

no, we have tuned the forces so that they don't affect you negatively, and you can still feel them to the extent that you can turn off your monitor and speaker and still tell what gun you're shooting. You can adjust the forces all the way down to zero yourself if you want, but you'll find that your aim is unaffected while you still can feel forces well. To get a little more technical on the force response of a shot (we spent a lot of time evaluating/tuning these concepts), you can turn down the time duration of the shot while maintaining the magnitude of the force during that time. This makes it so that you don't have much difference in position, because the motors turn off quick enough it doesn't throw your hand around. At the same time, it still feels like a gun shot. In addition, to also help understand the point, when you aim the crosshair at a point on the wall, Valve programmed in error on your shot and a graphical kick. You can hold your hand much more still than those built in recoils. Given the way Valve programmed it, there is innately a slight adjustment after a shot even with a mouse, so there's no difference with the Falcon.



"But can you spin around behind you, rocket jump, spin around, shoot an enemy on the ground as you fly, shoot a rocket off the wall, and hit the enemy again?
can you then swap to sniper, and have enough precision so your crosshair doesnt fly over players, without having to change any settings?"

Yes, with the Falcon you can spin around behind you, rocket jump, spin around, shoot an enemy on the ground as you fly, shoot a rocket off the wall, and hit the enemy again, then switch to sniper and play well there too, if you're a good enough player to do that. One of our employees, John T who will be in the contest, is good enough to play that way using the Falcon.



"Won't I get tired using it long sessions? Don't you have to keep your arm in the air?"

No, you won't get tired using the Falcon if you set up your workspace correctly (which is necessary with the mouse too). If your elbow is supported and your wrist is straight, you can go long sessions with the Falcon. I've played 10+ hour sessions with the Falcon, with my hand not leaving the handle other than for bio breaks, and I'm less tired than a similar marathon session with the mouse.




"Won't the Falcon break with the way gamers will be rough on it?"

No, the Falcon is very robust and has a 1 year warranty if it breaks for any reason, which is a strong warranty. One of the things we've most heard from actual owners, is that they are surprised how robust it really is, when they get it. It was designed specifically for gaming.



"I'm still skeptical even after reading what you've written"

Fair enough. We're going to show you. If you get a Falcon, you'll see for yourself too (also, if you buy it and don't feel that it was worth the cost, you can return it and get your money back)

thx, tomnovint
 

drp

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Oct 25, 2007
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really cool. i would probably suck with anything other than a sniper.
 

The Gentlemanne

L4: Comfortable Member
Jun 18, 2009
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DJive

Cake or Death?
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Dec 20, 2007
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Ive used one before but without the gun attachment.

We had it on Demo at CompUSA when it was still around...

tons of fun heh =) i could only imagine how much training that employee must have i mean...

$150 + shipping and allow infinite number to be won is risky.
 

A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
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Nov 2, 2007
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I'm still skeptical. Not on whether it's better than a mouse, but on whether it is actually any more "real". Have these guys ever used a gun? Aiming a gun is not like aiming their little gadget (the axes of movement).
 

drp

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Oct 25, 2007
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I'm still skeptical. Not on whether it's better than a mouse, but on whether it is actually any more "real". Have these guys ever used a gun? Aiming a gun is not like aiming their little gadget (the axes of movement).
i think they're trying to imitate as closely as possible, and not have it be 'ultra' realistic.

(my 12ga can take your arm off if you're not careful)
 

drp

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Oct 25, 2007
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i wonder if we could get a discount on one to use as a contest prize :D
 

DJive

Cake or Death?
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Dec 20, 2007
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A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
aa
Nov 2, 2007
4,775
7,669
i think they're trying to imitate as closely as possible, and not have it be 'ultra' realistic.

(my 12ga can take your arm off if you're not careful)
Well what I'm getting at is, when using a real weapon the pivot point is behind the handle (wrist/shoulder), with this thing, it's beyond your hand... basically strikes me as a "lolwut"
 

Ganonmaster

L1: Registered
Nov 25, 2008
32
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I'm probably not good enough, and playing on a US server will probably put me at a disadvantage. I'll just buy one on the internet.(want moar gadgets kekekekekeke)
 

Psy

The Imp Queen
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Apr 9, 2008
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You can get an accessory in the shape of a gun where you use the trigger to fire.
 

Cerious

L420: High Member
Aug 10, 2008
455
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ew eGO servers

do the rules involve no swearing or any of that 'mature' garbage that they have to make this game 'family friendly'?
 

Hawk

L7: Fancy Member
Dec 3, 2007
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Ive used one before but without the gun attachment.

We had it on Demo at CompUSA when it was still around...

tons of fun heh =) i could only imagine how much training that employee must have i mean...

$150 + shipping and allow infinite number to be won is risky.

CompUSA was where I tried one too. Honestly, I was really impressed with how it felt and especially enjoyed the force-feedback. Feeling your gun kick back is kind of cool. But I also had doubts about its practicality as a gaming device... unless you designed games specifically for the device.

I'll be watching to see how these contests play out. Secretly I want a Falcon, I just don't think it'll justify its price, and I'd love to see better applications for it than making games feel a little cooler (like using it in 3D software packages, Photoshop, Mudbox, etc.)