Cevo BANS the sandman

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
I am not calling you an idiot for playing it, I am calling you an idiot based on the flaws in the things you say. Like saying yours is better, which is a matter of opinion. Repeating the same line in all caps, and doing "protips".
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
Bring some of them over here and have them read some of the things you have said...I happen to think that most comp players would be inclined to be rational

oh, I'll bring some over.

TF2 has nine classes for a reason, is stock with crits and twenty-four players for a reason, and is mapped for with those two parameters in mind for a reason

Are you saying Dusbowl, Goldrush, and Hydro where made for 12v12? They are narrow, spammy, cluster**** maps that were not made for 12v12. But for some reason they seem (not hydro) to be the most popular.

EDIT: /thread. It seems we are getting no wheres.
 
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Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
aa
May 19, 2008
1,767
2,820
Sure, they are narrow and spammy, but they are narrow and spammy for a reason. It's FUN. Yes, I said it, FUN. FUN. And players play for FUN (maybe not you, but I do, as do many others).

You know what feels rewarding? Breaking through a narrow, spammy corridor and winning a round. You know what prepares you to be a better player next round? Losing at the last moment. It's a game. Have fun with it.
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
Dustbowl is by an exceedingly large margin my most played map and you know what? I scorn any server that plays it with anything except 24 players. The map was made for 24 players, its fun with 24 players, and as far as im concerned, case closed.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
I don't mean to insult anyone, but you really can't argue about comp play if think dustbowl is a great map, becuase if you do think this a great map, then that shows that you really don't understand the comp scene.

I don't mean any offence but we are both coming from different sides and are having a hard time understanding each other. At this point we are arguing for arguing sakes.

/thread.
 

drunkie

L1: Registered
Jul 21, 2008
39
10
I don't understand how this means anything more than CEVO feels this weapon is to overpowered for 6v6?

Why do all of these things turn into a bitter competitive vs casual players? They both are Valves customers, and Valve does not play kiss ass to either of them. Valve designs the game that will be fun in their vision of the game. On top of that both sides of the sphere has resulted in meaningful updates to the game. The Medic and Pyro where upgraded in large part because of the casual scene, while the custom crosshairs and dmg being narrowed has been attributed to the competitive scene's ideas on the game.

I play this game competitively as well as in pubs. Neither have to be mutually exclusive, nor the hatred between the two scenes. Both just want this game to be as fun as it can be.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNCgNopyFeU&feature=channel_page"]and tell me this isn't OP.[/ame]
 

AWESOME-O

L10: Glamorous Member
Mar 20, 2008
779
132
So if Valve revealed a tenth class that is a flying sentriy gun that shoots nothing but crit rockets and has an aimbot sniper rifle attached to it, banning it would be ridiculous?

valve wouldn't release bullshit.
 

AWESOME-O

L10: Glamorous Member
Mar 20, 2008
779
132
Oh btw, your playing it wrong. I play comp with my friends and we just steamrolled the other team with pyro's. Because they don't expect it.

2 pyro's
1 medic
1 heavy
1 soldier
1 spy

Best setup ever, because noone suspects it.
 

Username

L2: Junior Member
Aug 26, 2008
96
61
So, as I see it, Mar is arguing that Sandman is a powerful tool in the hands of a professional, because they're able to use it effectively and it forces players to change how they play. And because it changes the rules of engagement, CEVO is banning it. And, because of how well it can be used in the hands of a pro, coupled with its power to make the victim feel useless, Mar believes that the Sandman is overpowered and needs to be nerfed in the next update.
Other people are arguing that in non competitive games, being hit with the sandman, while sometimes annoying, is a rare occurrence, and no more frustrating than being dominated by a good sniper. Most people are also putting their trust in Valve that it tested these weapons fairly extensively, and that the weapons are fairly balanced.
The opinion is almost universal, however, that the stunning of ubers is "overpowered".

I'd like to throw out a third argument. I think everybody's passing judgment a bit too soon. When the air blast first was released, pyros were everywhere, and ubers often got nowhere. I remember being frustrated on multiple rounds by a single pyro when I was ubered. But then the novelty wore off. It went down to a single pyro or two per team... And people learned counters. Teams would make sure the airblast pyro was dead before ubering. Soldiers started pulling out their shottie if a pyro got too blast happy. The point is, these new mechanics change the way the game is played, and everybody, competitive and casual alike, is so busy playing the same way they did before the update, they don't realize their old strategies are ineffective. Just because something new forces you to play differently doesn't mean it should be shunned.
Let me give another example. Imagine if TF2 had been released without the spy. Strategies would shift in subtle ways. The engie would be more of an offensive class, not spending as much time with his gun, the scout, demo, and soldier would be used more to get behind the enemy's front lines, etc. etc. The game would still be fairly balanced, albiet probably with a few minor tweaks. According to Mar, competitive would be unchanged, since the spy is worthless in his eyes. (Whether that is true or not is a different topic altogether)
Flash forward a year. Suddenly, a ninth class is announced for TF2, and it was released a week ago. The forums are in an uproar, everyone's complaining about how the spy is overpowered against sentries and heavies. CEVO immediately bans the spy, claiming Valve made something that's too overpowered. Being able to disguise as an enemy teammate? Perfect invisibility? One hit kills that "don't require skill", like a sniper does? No, this class has no place in competitive games. Experienced medics complain about occasionally wasting ubers on enemy spies, everyone thinks that ability is overpowered. Engies complain that sentries are useless now that an invisible enemy can take it down when nobody's around. Of course, this new "spy" is a horrible decision on Valve's part, and everyone complains that they liked TF2 back when it was "balanced" and had "the right number of classes".
What I'm trying to say is that the sandman creates more depth in TF2. Yes, some of your old strategies are invalidated. Yes, you'll have to develop ways to counter a scout with the sandman. Maybe people will have to pay more attention, make more sporadic movements overall. A good Sniper's effectiveness might be lowered a bit. Get over it. The rules have changed. Change with them. Adapt. Experiment. Shake up the lineup a bit. For God's sake, enjoy playing the freaking game, stop complaining about having to learn how to play a bit differently.

Anyway, pyro with airblast is my main, I've already stunned more scouts with their own balls than I've been stunned myself. So I find the bat a bit underpowered in my situation. XD
 

Shmitz

Old Hat
aa
Nov 12, 2007
1,128
746
It's not about adaptation. It's about fun. Mechanics like stun take control out of the hands of the player. They reduce you to an observer, rather than a participant, which may not be rage-enducing, but it sure isn't fun. Regardless of whether you live or die, you are effectively shunted into spectator mode against your will. If that's what you wanted, you would have chosen spectate from the beginning instead of joining a team.

The airblast nearly crossed that line, but at least it still let players hold onto their ability to aim and shoot. It was also balanced by the fact that the pyro couldn't flame while doing it, and he could only do it eight times before needing to get more ammo. (The FaN, incidentally, can do it 32 times at a larger range and also causes significant damage. The scout is now just a bundle of gameplay disruption, isn't he?)
 

Hawk

L7: Fancy Member
Dec 3, 2007
419
213
I don't mean to insult anyone, but you really can't argue about comp play if think dustbowl is a great map, becuase if you do think this a great map, then that shows that you really don't understand the comp scene.
/thread.

If Dustbowl isn't a great map, then I don't want to understand the comp scene. I love Dustbowl.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
So, as I see it, Mar is arguing that Sandman is a powerful tool in the hands of a professional, because they're able to use it effectively and it forces players to change how they play.

All updates will change playstyle and tactics. That is not why we are banning it. It is being banned becuase it is ridiculously powerful. Did you watch that video I posted? At the very beginning a scout kills 2 solis and a demoman. Before the update the scout could kill 1 at most (if they where in a group like that), and that could only happen if he got a perfect flank and hit them before they even saw him. But now with the sandman he can charge straight at 3 other players and come out on top. That's why its OP.

And because it changes the rules of engagement, CEVO is banning it.

You know what, it does change the rules of engagement. Its a melee weapon that has a ranged attack!

And, because of how well it can be used in the hands of a pro, coupled with its power to make the victim feel useless, Mar believes that the Sandman is overpowered and needs to be nerfed in the next update.

You don't have to be a pro to use it, its as about as hard to aim as a flare gun or pipe nade. Which is pretty easy. And I'm not the only one that thinks it should be nerfed, 90% of the comp scene thinks it should be nerfed, and quite a few pubbers think it's OP.


Other people are arguing that in non competitive games, being hit with the sandman, while sometimes annoying, is a rare occurrence, and no more frustrating than being dominated by a good sniper.

How is it a rare occurrence? I think you need to play with people who can aim. And it's alot more frustrating then a sniper becuase you can shoot back at the sniper who practically stands still when he aims, but it is nigh impossible to hit a scout at long range.


Most people are also putting their trust in Valve that it tested these weapons fairly extensively, and that the weapons are fairly balanced.

Valve cam out with the +50 health on the backburner. They also came out with crits. Neither of which was balanced.

The opinion is almost universal, however, that the stunning of ubers is "overpowered".

Yep, that should be the universal opinion. Why should the sandman affect invulnerability.


I'd like to throw out a third argument. I think everybody's passing judgment a bit too soon. When the air blast first was released, pyros were everywhere, and ubers often got nowhere. I remember being frustrated on multiple rounds by a single pyro when I was ubered. But then the novelty wore off. It went down to a single pyro or two per team... And people learned counters. Teams would make sure the airblast pyro was dead before ubering. Soldiers started pulling out their shottie if a pyro got too blast happy. The point is, these new mechanics change the way the game is played, and everybody, competitive and casual alike, is so busy playing the same way they did before the update, they don't realize their old strategies are ineffective. Just because something new forces you to play differently doesn't mean it should be shunned
.

But there is something wrong with this argument. before the update the pyro was a gimped broken class that was absolutely worthless. Its damage was too low, and the flamer's hit detection has broken. This update brought the pyro back to the playing field as a class that was usable, but still had a low skill ceiling.

The scout on the other hand was already the most powerful class in the game. He could kill medics like no other, and go toe to toe with demos, heavy, pyro, etc. Pretty much the only class that could kill him was a soldi. Most comp players expected Valve to nerf the scout (more specifically make the cone of shotgun spray wider so he can;'t kill you from mid range), but instead they gave him a huge buff, gave him a gun that could have been called the ultimate 2 shot weapon, and they gave him a stun weapon.


Let me give another example. Imagine if TF2 had been released without the spy. Strategies would shift in subtle ways. The engie would be more of an offensive class, not spending as much time with his gun, the scout, demo, and soldier would be used more to get behind the enemy's front lines, etc. etc. The game would still be fairly balanced, albiet probably with a few minor tweaks. According to Mar, competitive would be unchanged, since the spy is worthless in his eyes. (Whether that is true or not is a different topic altogether)

I find it kinda funny that 2 entire weapons (sapper and wrench) where made for this 2 class relationship that negates the whole point of having a automated gun.

Spy is useless in comp CP, but not CTF (becuase CTF is gimped) because he is a suicide class, and against a well coordinated team, the spy is quickly called out killed, and that player will spend most of his time in respawn.


Flash forward a year. Suddenly, a ninth class is announced for TF2, and it was released a week ago. The forums are in an uproar, everyone's complaining about how the spy is overpowered against sentries and heavies.

Well the steam forums are always bitching about something. The latest being demoman and snipers.

CEVO immediately bans the spy, claiming Valve made something that's too overpowered. Being able to disguise as an enemy teammate?

Disguises are pointless, in a week or 2 people learned all the signs of a spy and disguises are now just a sentry block and a momentary distraction. The new update for switching weapons, well people have already countered that and the new spy check is too just say something in TF2 voicechat.

Perfect invisibility?

But you can't do anything while invisible. Except pick up the flag, which is gimped.

One hit kills that "don't require skill", like a sniper does?

Sniper takes aim and practice, spy takes positioning and a fair amount of skill. People all always checking their 6 for any class, and the spy has to have skill to survive.


No, this class has no place in competitive games. Experienced medics complain about occasionally wasting ubers on enemy spies,

Experienced medics have learned to spy check, and if the spy just came out, they would learn to run into their heal partners.

everyone thinks that ability is overpowered. Engies complain that sentries are useless now that an invisible enemy can take it down when nobody's around.

The spy has to uncloak to sap.

Of course, this new "spy" is a horrible decision on Valve's part, and everyone complains that they liked TF2 back when it was "balanced" and had "the right number of classes".

I like TF2 when It was balanced. Your argument isn't making sense because the spy is balanced, even from the start of TF2, as opposed to the scout who has already the most powerful class, and this class made him even more powerful.

What I'm trying to say is that the sandman creates more depth in TF2.

If depth means backing the strongest class in the game even more powerful, then yes, it adds depth.

Yes, some of your old strategies are invalidated. Yes, you'll have to develop ways to counter a scout with the sandman. Maybe people will have to pay more attention, make more sporadic movements overall. A good Sniper's effectiveness might be lowered a bit. Get over it. The rules have changed. Change with them. Adapt. Experiment. Shake up the lineup a bit. For God's sake, enjoy playing the freaking game, stop complaining about having to learn how to play a bit differently.

A flying aimboting one shot tank would shake up the lineup quiet a bit. And, again, comp people enjoy playing the game. We are backing these changes to make the game more balanced and in turn, more fun.


Anyway, pyro with airblast is my main, I've already stunned more scouts with their own balls than I've been stunned myself. So I find the bat a bit underpowered in my situation. XD

Hurray, but again, why are you knocking back a melee weapon? The sandman is OP even on those grounds. It's an OP melee weapon. It really should only melee shouldn't it?

Valve updated the medic and the pyro well, providing nice alternatives that weren't OP after some tweaking. The heavy update was a joke, nothing changed their and all heavies agree that the best loadout is the original one. The scout update made on OP class more powerful.


PS. People read those threads. There is a lot more that this discussion hasn't covered. Not only does the sandman let you 2 shot other classes, but it leaves the stunned man completely exposed to the other team.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
While the pyro can save himself, it is hard for him to save his team mates with out practically being on top of them. Another problem is that the airblast sends the ball right back to the scout.
 

MangyCarface

Mapper
aa
Feb 26, 2008
1,626
1,325
Being on top of them is a tactic that should be considered top priority for pyros in microplay; macroplay can afford them as an ambush class, but in micro, where all damage has significance, the pyro is the -only- defensive class; that is, able to prevent direct damage, as well as splash damage, from reaching his allies; the push also works in removing direct threats, such as scouts, from the immediate area around the medic-much in the same way a soldier's rockets do.