idolon_mc8

KotH idolon_mc8 a5a

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
idolon_mc8 - funny spiral koth

Originally made for Microcontest 8, this map is designed to take up as little space as possible while maintaining walk times by wrapping around itself as two interlocked rings. Each team approaches the point from two different directions at once, making for a unique push and pull for territory.
 
Last edited:

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
This actually turned out to be impossible to spawncamp because all the action was focused on the point. Rounds were fun, but really heavy on spam. The point switched hands often, which is great, but certain classes were struggling to find ground and others dominated. Teams need to be able to hold forward better, classes like spy and scout need ways to contribute to their team (pyro almost made this list but there is plenty for them to be reflecting), and sniper may need nerfing.

I think the obvious thing here is to adjust respawn times since the map is considerably smaller than typical KotH (and there isn't a great way to increase that walk time in the map geometry without messing things up). This will allow teams who have just wiped the enemy a bit of rest / opportunity to push forward.

The other main thing is allowing flank classes to cross the point safely, and this is less obviously solved, since there isn't much room to the "side" of the map to add a flank. A route under the point is the most obvious, but that will still require some disruption to implement. The other idea is to try and offer more cover in the mid and yard itself so getting into enemy territory is less suicidal.
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
a2

-added fences to back dirt ramp route to force snipers further forward if they want that sightline
-slightly expanded closet route to let players do more with it
-removed crates on point to give players more width to cross the point (may backfire since point now has less cover overall)
-adjusted respawn time for attacking team from 4s to 6s
-adjusted respawn time for defending team from 8s to 10s

Read the rest of this update entry...
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
The sketch I drew during the one-hour planning phase for the contest:

koth spiral sketch (2).jpg
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
The test of a2a was interesting to watch as teams figured out how to play the map a bit better. Players were more able to play aggressively and hold forward in enemy territory on occasion, which was really exciting to watch! Adjusted respawn times may also be somewhat responsible for this.

The main problem remains that weaker flanking classes (scout, spy) simply are not useful. The common feedback here is to enlarge the map and add routes to the side of the point. This doesn't seem like a great idea, since any route to the side of the point would basically come out underneath and behind where teams walk to the point, which would introduce very weird flow to a map that already has weird flow.

Viaduct is a map that has no flank around the point, but it still works. Why? As best I can tell, its because the point is wider and the capzone doesn't extend the full width. This allows some dead space to the sides where scout can run without immediately being in the thick of the action, or for spy to run by with relatively low risk of getting spammed out.

upload_2020-10-20_7-28-19.png

(Credit to Yrrzy to pointing out how much dead space this point has, and how much mine doesn't have.)

There are a variety of ways in which this does not transfer to the current design of my map's point. For one, it isn't very wide. Also, the side areas are currently occupied by a dedicated flank route, which is a good spot for many other classes and will attract spam to spies and scouts who might want to use it. Lastly, the map is designed without any middle routes to the point, so the bulk of each team only ever approaches the point from the sides, and consequently the sides of the point are already getting spammed out.

upload_2020-10-20_7-30-0.png


I think it would make sense to enlarge the point area a bit just to give everyone a bit more breathing room, including the weaker flanking classes like scout and spy. I don't think that the sides of the point will ever be great flanking paths since the bulk of each team will be watching both sides at all times, but it would allow a scout to at least have a chance of combat on the point. Widening the area would also allow for some cover in the middle of the point area (ala the rocks on either side of Viaduct mid) without making the area too claustrophobic.

Since widening the point won't necessarily allow a spy through easily, I'm also considering a flank underneath the point. This is really the only place for an additional route to go. I am hesitant to add this since I think it will be very easy to spam out for defenders and not really be a useful route for anyone, but it might feel a bit more comfortable if the point area as a whole got wider. A few ideas:

upload_2020-10-20_7-33-34.png

(Redesign this area to mostly go below the point. This doesn't make a ton of sense because now one half of the routes out of spawn are dedicated to going under the point...)

upload_2020-10-20_7-45-15.png

(Repurpose the closet route to be a route under the point. This has the benefit of making the sides of the point into more dead space for scouts and spies, but I think where this route comes out would not be a fun dynamic since it is so close to a team's main hold. It'll either be too easy to spam out or very suddenly overwhelm a team's setup, never anything inbetween. Also, I like the dynamic this closet route has with the point and I don't really want to get rid of it.)

upload_2020-10-20_7-41-0.png

(This option makes the most sense to me. It would preserve the "pincer action" push onto the point that makes this map unique, and put the flank exit in a spot that seems to be in the sweet spot for usability vs. spamability. This redesign of the supports around the point would also introduce cover to the middle of the point area, ala the rocks on Viaduct mid [although I am unsure how useful that cover will be considering that nobody will be pushing from that direction, only from the sides].)


EDIT: A second thought about this idea:
unknown.png


This design might actually make some sense if the lower route was given more importance, by borrowing an idea from Reckoner / Shithole and putting the point on the low ground and letting the high ground spam down onto it.

Putting the point on the low ground would give each path out of spawn a more distinct tactical choice. Also, since it would remove a path onto the high ground, that area would receive less spam and make it more viable for flanking classes to do their thing. The dynamic of rotating between the low ground and high ground would also be interesting.

I think I will try this option for a3 and keep the other idea in my back pocket.
 
Last edited:

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
a3

-slightly enlarged map (128 units in x and y)
-lowered ground level on one approach to point to open route underneath point area
-changed cap to mini-nipple for cover, height variation, and shrunk overall area

Read the rest of this update entry...
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
Played a3 today. I had fun, but I was playing a spam class and was on the winning team every match, so I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

Spam classes definitely dominate the map still, but scouts and spies were actually able to make some plays. Enlarging the point was a good idea, and the addition of the nipple was a good idea, but the addition of the nipple also made the point feel cramped again. I'll need to enlarge the map again.

Personally I have not had issues with getting sniped, but it is a pretty common complaint. While the nipple does provide cover that helps you push onto the point with relative protection, it does not protect against snipers, and it also makes it more difficult to place any full-height cover. Either the nipple needs to be taller to provide cover (which would disallow most classes from getting on top), or the nipple needs to be removed in favor of other full-height cover like crates. A third alternative would be lowering or removing sniper spots.

The underground route seemed to serve its intended purpose fairly well, in that it was relatively useful as a flank route and helped relieve pressure from the rest of the map. However, I am unsure if the route will continue to be useful as players learn the map, as it exits into a fairly exposed spot and whether or not it is useful seems down to luck. Hard to tell at this point. Defcon suggested putting pickups down here (specifically, "kinda expect to find pickups under the point"), and I think this would be a good idea to help players make more substantial pushes from that route.

I am also unsure if having one route out of spawn lead directly to the low ground is a good idea, since I am unsure how good of a place it is to actually be. Fortunately, it is pretty easy to rotate from that area to the other side of the map, so this might not be a big issue. The larger worry is that I am not sure if I like having two very distinct routes out of spawn where one is the one you want to take most of the time. That, and I don't want to accidentally direct people into the flank (the low ground route) if it is intentionally supposed to be less populated.
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
a4 thoughts

First, a change to the spawn: Instead of splitting the two routes completely out of spawn, there is now a sort of lobby. This will help consolidate teleporter entrances, benefiting that team as well as enemy spies trying to sap. I think this will also help with navigation, as players will hopefully understand the donut shape more quickly.

upload_2020-10-22_18-26-16.png


The other thing I'm thinking about is how the routes out of spawn feel versus how they actually function. Currently it feels more natural to exit spawn to the right, which is actually the flankier approach to the point. The other exit leads you to the main push to the point, but it feels secondary. One solution is to just reorient the spawnroom to switch these roles, but it got me thinking: What if we reworked the area before the point to reflect how the spawn feels right now?

upload_2020-10-22_18-30-16.png


This is an interesting change. As it is now, the main push to the point has two routes with very quick rotation times between them. I find this to be a fun dynamic, with the chickenwire fence allowing you to play peekaboo with enemies on the point trying to catch you out.

However, I wonder if having the only two routes onto the point so close together is limiting the tactical potential of the map. If we move the main path to the point as drawn above, it would split the two routes further apart and allow for more flank-oriented play, as well as give both exits from spawn a path onto the point (while still clearly giving priority to the route that feels correct out of spawn). It would also make the low route potentially more useful, since it could be used to discourage players trying to use the closet route. This makes a lot of sense to me.

My main concern with this change is that the new main push would be much closer to the point. The current main push has decent distance to the point:

upload_2020-10-22_18-38-35.png


If you were able to walk right onto the point from here (as evidenced by playtesting of earlier versions):

upload_2020-10-22_18-39-57.png


I think it may be possible to balance this with placement of the health/ammo (which is already in an inconvenient spot for pushing) as well as changing the general layout in that area. Regardless, this route is on the inside of the spiral and will always be a tighter corner onto the point no matter what I do, so I will always be a bit uncertain of making this route the main. It makes more sense that the longer and more gradual route would be the main path rather than the shorter and tighter route.

Any thoughts?
 

14bit

L14: Bit Member
aa
Oct 5, 2014
642
2,065
I've only played up to A2, so I'm not sure how useful I can be, but I can try!

From what I remember, the want to exit to the right was caused by the spawn layout mostly, and your reconstruction of them might already reduce that a decent amount. It does seem like the routes are flipped right now, with the longer one being the flank, but I'm not sure that just flipping the main and flank is a good idea without additional changes. Before the underground route existed, that corner in the last screenshot was brutal if the enemy team had a sniper; I dropped a few Medics that had to blindly take that corner. Making that the main route while keeping it as a greater than 90 degree angle I feel would only exasperate the situation.

You might be able to pull that corner outwards, like this:

image0.png


Not sure though. I'm not entirely sure how much room you've got, and this might introduce unwanted chokes and an unnecessary drop down.
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
a4

-scaled map up by 128 units in x and y
-redesigned spawn to allow a full loop through map without passing through spawns
-adjusted height and props to hopefully nullify some cheeky sightlines
-added small healths, cover to low ground route
-fixed railings

Read the rest of this update entry...
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
a5

-added new route under sniper balcony to give flank classes more stuff to do in enemy territory (adds small health and ammo per side)
-raised nipple to 128 units tall
-reduced cap time from 8s to 5s to encourage more back and forth
-added small ammo underneath point for spies
-several adjustments to cover for sightline blocks

Read the rest of this update entry...
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106