TF2Maps.net Major Contest #15: Payload Checklist Contest [PRELIM VOTING]

Canale: I really like this map, and have been viewing it from the beginning of its development. There are some problems with it, including sightlines and how hard it is to push through 2nd (OP sentry spots), but this map utilizes the concept really well, to the point that I'm having fun playing in this map. I can't wait to see more updates to it.

Berlebeck: This map is decent to look at. For gameplay, there are major problems, as it feels like hightower but the objective is even harder. I will say that the objective is being played more often but its hard to push through without going back and forth infinitely, so the game turns more into a deathmatch. I would look past these flaws if the overtime had something different that can end the game sooner but overtime basically never ends so it goes on for infinite. It's disappointing for me because there are many well developed gameplay spaces that is fun for deathmatch but this doesn't play well for payload race.

Preinvention: I kinda like this map, despite the chokepoints and some sightlines through catwalks. It's quite creative in some areas, albeit confusing. If you developed this map more so that it would be less confusing (I had a hard time as an attacker knowing where to go and which routes are flanks), and fixed some of the sightlines, I would've probably voted yes.

Munitions: This is a well constructed map, I can definitely say this. The paths are simple and easy to understand, there was no point where I was confused on where I was. There are few sightlines despite how open this map is, though I will say that second stage did feel like a sniper v sniper at some point. If there were a bit more changes in some chokepoints that would help attackers a bit more, I'd say it would be a perfectly made payload map.

Frostwire: I like this map, I have fun playing on it but there are problems that I wish would be attended to in the future. I'd say most of these problems stem from last and the choke between the bridge and the third(?) point but there are some other problems as well. First, I want to say that last has flank problems, in that when I enter (as red) the flanks on the left, there's either an enemy to my left, right and/or top of me, and its all cramped. I'd say just simplify some of these paths so when I enter, I can assume where the enemy would likely be. Second, the choke between the bridge and third needs to be fixed, either by removing sightlines through obstacles like fencing, removing the sentry spot or moving back the point to right after the cart passes the bridge and over the hill because it feel like you have to push for way too long in that area. Lastly, there are many flank areas, mainly the beginning, that serve no purpose other than just being there, which can lead to some general confusion. But yeah, despite these problems, there are many creative things that you utilized well in this map and if these problems were fixed, it would make a fantastic payload map.

Tumble Tech: It has the standard payload race problems where things become stalematey, and it also has similar issues to Hightower as well but vertically. In Hightower, when the two carts are at the end, most of the gameplay is centered on the tower and the narrow path between the two carts, whereas the rest of the map is an open space flank. Tumble Tech has this but the problem is more 'extreme' in that the gameplay at the end is mostly on the third level, and being in the second and first levels makes you more vulnerable due to the sightlines that cover the whole area. It's a bit complicated so if you need further explanations, contact me. The tunnels mildly fix this problem but they do get confusing and are useful in mostly surprising enemy players. Other than that, there are areas that are a bit fun to fight on but some like the cart paths are a little constricted. I like the visuals, colors standout well.

Burner: Not a huge fan of this map, it really feels unpolished. I played this many times and I felt always confused and both attacking and defending felt awkward, there are so many gameplay spaces where I felt disadvantaged, even with a medic combo. There's sightlines, there's bugs with spawn points, there's cramped spaces and there's too open spaces. I wish there was more work put into this fixing these problems because it feels like a mishmash with not much identity.

Slipway: I have mixed feelings. I like the artstyle though it needs some improvements, boats and docks are a rare theme in TF2. You were very creative in the checklist with moving crates and even a boat as a beginning with water parts as pits. Still, there were many problems that needed to be addressed, with most of them being in the last point. I can't play last point, it feels like where all the fun of the map drops for me. Not only is the redspawn on the side, the whole area feels so confusing and decentralized. I just don't know where to fight and the situation of I am in. I feel like I know what you were trying to do here but it didn't work for me. Other problems within the whole map include some annoying sightlines and just general confusion but they're magnified in last.

Amaryllis: At first set of tests, I thought this map was just chokepoint after chokepoint and felt that Red team has a way too easy time defending. But recently, after playing with more balanced and communicative teams, this map is really fun and challenging. This map really feels unique in its gameplay, not just through the checklist but in general; there's great height variation, nice open spaces that are not too open for there to be strong sightlines, and its overall easy to understand when playing with a team. I don't know whether you were making it at a competitive mindset but this map feels like a better PL comp map than most official ones currently played. This map also really looks nice, the colors look great and I hope you continue a bright theme like cp_sunshine. I hope you would continue updating because I can see a bright future for this map.

Thorium: This map is broken. Leaks, FPS issues, missing cubemaps, and all that. That said, there was one highlight where I headshot a dead ringer spy into a deadly frog and I thought that was amazing.

Bella: It's a hit or miss for me, despite really liking the aesthetic. There are some chokepoints and areas near last where RED team basically dominates the game with ease. Some areas felt cramped and there was a severe lack of health packs for both teams to find. I really like the custom prop and the map looks nice, albeit some problems with the fog and other particle effects that looked really off. Even though there are 3 points, this map feels really short and I wish it was either multistage or at least 1 more point added.

Bombastic Forest: I played this map far more than any of the other maps in this contest. From a1 to the current version, this map has always had problems, albeit each version had different ones. Even though this map has went through so many updates, the first and second point are largely the same and I feel like those parts of the map needed changes the most. The start is a large outside hallway with a sightline and already a huge choke that might even force BLU team back inside. Then, after the first point, the map turns into a maze, which might be fun for spy but not for any other reasons. There's a large building with patios outside that give off insane heights, and the cart path is still another large sightline. There's another large building that gives a flank that either benefits the RED team insanely or the BLU team insanely, depending on the positions of the teams. Then theres a huge courtyard with the train that is powerful for snipers, and the red spawn is a bit too close for BLU team to attack without spawncamping. Then, we move onto the other half of the map, and its a huge step forward compared to the first half. While last is chaotic, there's great positioning and both teams can try and take advantage of the perilous environment. The other point wasn't anything memorable but sufficient. I really wish you would've fixed the problems with the beginning of the map because the reworks you've were great and showed that you could definitely make a fun map. I also never understood why this map was called Bombastic Forest.

Josh: I have played this map quite a bit but I don't know whether I like it or dislike it.

Kinder: This map is one of the most detailed and visually best maps in this contest. It not only fits great into the TF2 artstyle but it capitalizes it in such a way that I believe it looks better than some official maps. What shocked me is how optimized and stable the map is, even how detailed it is. For gameplay, it doesn't hold up I believe. I'd say this is one of the most linear payload maps in TF2, there's rarely any branching flanks that deviate from the main route. I'd say the first and second points are the best parts of the map, they're very open and unique but aren't so open where snipers can dominate. The last parts of the map are not the best, right after the second point is a large open outside hallway that is both hard and frankly boring to attack through. The final point is interesting as RED team has buildings to work with that center around the point and there is a large cliff face that acts like an interesting flank. Despite the problems, I had fun playing through this map, with all classes.

The maps I haven't played on the contest version with full amount of people were Snowthistle, Rush, Descend, Highwood, Kahoalii, and Longhaul. I wish I played these in the imps, some of these are really creative and made really well, but for some reason I never had the chance.

Feedback

Amaryllis - The map's layout is pretty enjoyable, with quite a few flanks for spies and scouts to pass the front lines, but B is far too defendable. The aesthetic is fantastic, my favorite spot is Blu's first spawn. Although, in the large flank near B you can place buildings on the orange doors in the floor. It's not a big problem, but you can block people from getting in with 2 teleporters. Overall a nice map, but gameplay polish is needed

Cannonburg - Gameplay overall is pretty good, and the brick aesthetic is a nice touch. The tank opening up walls and the jump pads are really cool gimmicks that spice up the gameplay very well. Also the grinder is pretty great with the healthpack. A really fun map that's worth a play.

Preinvention - Overall the map feels somewhat cramped. The wood aesthetic in the first stage is pretty interesting, but there are many beams that you get caught up on. The teleporter spawn room gimmick is very confusing if you came into the map after the tutorial segment of the map, and many spots are slightly overscaled. The amount of ambition in this map is admirable, and I could see this ambition being useful in the future.

Snowthistle - Lets get the obvious out of the way, that ice waterfall is amazing, although the ice itself is somewhat annoying to slip and slide on. The "tundra castle" aesthetic is a great theme, and I find the gameplay akin to that of hightower, but with a competitive spin. Super enjoyable, would recommend.

Josh - Gameplay-wise, I enjoy this map. The large amount of height variation and props to hop onto are great for scouts and soldiers, but in some places you can get stuck behind rocks via rocket jumping. The hilarious minecraft blocks in some places are great in the humor of the map, and the lava is fun to look at. Last point is a great final for jumper classes, letting soldiers be able to market garden and demos being able to bomb. There are some perch points that feel unfair and bathed in darkness, the deathpit can also be pretty annoying at some points. besides those negative points, Josh is a fun time with a good aesthetic.

Wizard Town - The gameplay for wizard town is quite a treat, I enjoy the geometry and cover in many places, but there are some issues I have with the gameplay. First is the giant wood door near A, there is no signage signifying that there is a way around it, and the paths around it are not specifically marked with arrows or signs telling you that "A is this way". The pumpkin bombs are a slight annoyance, but that's just a quirk with Halloween maps in general. Last is a very fun place to deathmatch with other players, although its easy to mistake the courtyard at last as a dead end thanks to the lack of directional lighting and signage in some areas. Alright, lets talk about detail. The aesthetic of the map is very nice, I love the "Spooky Castle" theme you were going for, and the map is very well-lit for a nighttime map. The merasmus statue in Red's first spawn courtyard is really cool to look at, but there's a bug where if you're right next to it your bullets just disappear. Also it would be cool if the bominomicon talked to players pushing the cart.

Berlebeck

Pretty fun vertical gameplay. Definitely feels like a death arena for people to fight on instead of a real place, and the visuals are pretty bland but I had fun.

Cannonburg

I think I played this in the casuals. It's a no opinion for me because I can't decide if it's a yes or no and haven't played it enough but here's some feedback. It's a bit blocky, and some of the shutter doors were just pretty confusing. I think I still had some pretty fun moments in there.

Fractal

I really like the dark theme and brushwork. The tight turns and ramps were fun to play around. However the last point of both stages isn't fun to attack and looks kinda bland (the lift and teleport thing were the only interesting parts there.

Highwood

Looks really good and I like how many tiny routes the simple open areas have. Sometimes I felt like I got overwhelmed by either atttackers or defenders but it was still fun.

Snowthistle

I like dropping on people as a heavy. Also looks pretty cool (heh)

First half of this map is really great to play on as mobility classes, given how many routes there are (without being too confusing) and some of them requiring more mobility than others. The first area is also rather open without feeling like a big box with stuff in it, which makes rocket jumping around a literal blast. I often found myself playing scout on BLU and flanking behind the enemy using the building route to the above right of the point (from BLU’s perspective). I found this route to be good for flanking classes such as scout and soldier, while the left route that leads behind the point being better suited for power classes with a medic accompanying them. The second point seemed to either be a huge choke for BLU, or an easy steamroll, depending on how RED’s respawn occured. This often led to players simply abandoning the 2nd point and instead set up defenses around C, due to how long the path from B to C is. It might of just been me, but the entire area from B to C feels rather “disconnected” and open from the rest of the map. Due to how long it is, most fights didn’t occur here, and instead would just have BLU players walking from spawn to the cart. Since B-C is roughly a third of the entire map, it just seems like filler between the two main chokes/defending points for the map. The only fights I did see occurring here would be a single RED player sneaking past BLU and causing a distraction that ends up with BLU wasting time. Once BLU reaches C, RED will have almost entirely set up a massive defense as most players didn’t spend any time trying to defend on C, usually staying on the other side of the bridge. Once BLU finally reaches last, it just seems to be a standard “RED holds for as long as possible with a sentry or two as a soldier watches the flanks and a heavy guards the main entrance”, which isn’t a bad thing at all. It never felt too hard to push in as BLU, but sentries seemed to be rather strong on last. Defending was enjoyable, as I found myself pushing forwards more often than I was holding back. One final thing to note was that my frame rates were rather low, which I guess is to be expected from a map this open and detailed. TL;DR, first and last area of the map are great, but the middle area seems very disconnected and long, without much action ever taking place in it.

Right off the bat, I just want to mention how much I love the custom assets that you’ve made for your map. It just gives it a feeling of how much you seem to care about Bella and what you want the overall aesthetics to feel like. That being said, the entire map felt like a very narrow path with more narrow buildings surrounding it. Coupled with a bunch of clipping problems, specifically with the decorative beams, it sometimes got frustrating to navigate around the map. This led to me often taking the simplest route to the cart, even if that route was being heavily defended. The only real use I saw the flanks being used for was for someone to grab a healthkit or ammo, as a soldier can easily spam into a doorway to prevent anyone from pushing through. A lot of the flanks didn’t really function as good flanks either, as they ended up taking you to the same place you would of ended up in if you followed the cart, but you are even more vulnerable due to how narrow the halls are. Lastly, last felt extremely open, without any real ways to approach it as BLU other than doing a blind push around a corner with a wicked nasty sightline. Defending as RED seemed to just be as simple as spamming projectiles near the cart, since most of the time the splash damage will hurt everyone trying to reach the cart. The map is awfully short too, meaning that 90% of the map is played near last, with the first and middle area being completely forgotten as BLU usually steamrolls right through it. TL;DR, map is extremely narrow in some places, with the flanks being rather painful to use due to how thin and unclipped they are. Only real place for RED to defend is at last, as anywhere else can just be spammed out with projectiles.

This map has been through a lot, and I can tell you really care about having the map be as playable as possible. While there isn’t any real major issues with the overall layout (except for last), the map just seems really slow and droning to play. Many parts of the map are just very long and linear paths that the cart goes through without any real reason to take the few available side paths. And because of how long some sections are, playing sniper is extremely easy and lets a player defend most points without any risk. The first area where BLU spawns is really open, and RED can’t really defend much and instead has to fall back into the building where the first point is. Once BLU captures the first point, they need to push through a long downhill section that can be defended easily with a few snipers. Again, I can’t really find any huge red flags with the layout, but it’s all just extremely linear and uninteresting to play on. Once BLU reaches last, they are usually stuck trying to push through as there aren’t any real good ways to get into last. The main cart path in the tunnel is narrow, and can be easily defended by a few RED soldiers or demomen. The second route with the dropdown/cave/tunnel is also easy to defend, as a sentry can easily kill any players who attempt to drop down. Lastly, snipers can stand in the back and have easy sight into both routes, without any real risk of doing so. TL;DR, map is really slow and uninteresting to play, without many features that would make it memorable. The first few versions of the map were honestly way more fun to play, even if they were technically more flawed. They had more height variation and more twists and turns that made it fun for BLU to attack.

Although the map isn’t detailed or textured, it is easily my favorite map in the contest. The biggest thing I like about this map is how is it both extremely open, and separated into sections at the same time. The map features many rocket jumping routes that make the long walktimes from spawn easier to deal with as soldier, and the height variation is just so fun to play around. I’ve played this map since the second version and it’s always felt fun to play as multiple different classes. As scout, there’s many flanks I can take that let me get behind RED or BLU without it feeling too disconnected from the map. As soldier, I can freely rocket jump around and surf on the massive ramps which just feels great to do. As pyro, I can defend many areas without it feeling like I’m at a huge disadvantage for playing pyro. The overall theme of the map seems to be a constant uphill battle with lots of nice height variation, without it feeling like BLU is constantly at a disadvantage, as the flanks are nice and open, and lead to different areas around each point. Besides bad clipping, I can’t really think about anything that severely hurts the map. But there are a few things I noticed that were definitely a little iffy to play around. Specifically, the first and last point. The first point is a really long and open section that snipers seem to have a field day on. A BLU sniper can punish any defenders for simply walking into the path of the cart, meaning that most of the time defenders will be all cramped around the shed/hut until an ubered soldier or demo completely decimates the entire team. Once BLU captures first, the area from the entrance to the building to where the old cart door used to be just feels really awkward to play around at times. Most of the time I won’t take the main path the cart goes through, and instead go through the wide open path to the right (from BLU perspective) and sneak around to deal with any defenders before I can push. The rest of the map is really fun to play though, without too many issues that would hinder the gameplay. Last isn’t too flawed, but I feel like trying to push through the extremely narrow path the cart takes is a death sentence, as most victories for BLU seem to come from the entire BLU team using the side flank to kill all defenders, and subsequently win the game. TL;DR, really fun map to play on as all classes, with great use of height variation and ramps that make mobility classes even more fun to play. Main issues are sightlines and bad clipping, but this overall does not negatively impact the map in a way which hinders the gameplay.

First off, I applaud you for trying something really unique that not many maps seem to do. TF2 normally doesn’t play well with a lot of water, but I never really felt like the water in this map negatively impacted the overall experience. The boat cart also ties in with the water theme of the map, and I never felt like I had to adapt to the fact that the cart wasn’t a cart, but instead a a large flat platform that moved along the map. That being said, those are sadly the only positive things I can say about the map, as everything else is either okay or outright frustrating. First off, and the main issues that plagues the entire map, is how open and massive some areas are, specifically the first point. Most of the time, there will always be one or two RED snipers at the top of the water slope, and they can see nearly every single part of the first area. And there isn’t any real good way to get to them either, as the distance from BLU spawn to the snipers is extremely long. I often found that the only way to make any progress was to swim underwater and hope no one would see me, but it wouldn’t really do much because as long as I am in the water, I’m at a massive disadvantage which makes attacking nearly impossible to do. Once BLU captures the first point, which usually happens rather quickly, the boat will go down the ramp and into the house, which at this point will have every attacker die from either a sentry, or spammed rockets. If this happens, BLU is basically screwed as there is no easy way to reach the boat at this point. The back of the boat is blocked off, and both side paths are easy to defend, and if BLU finally does get on the boat, they can easily be killed with stickies or rockets due to how cramped the small area is. Out of all the times I have played, only a very small handful of playtests have made it past this part. This entire area is also plagued with sightlines, meaning that it’s even more difficult for BLU to retake the boat. And because of how much of a choke this area is, the rest of the map is rarely ever seen or played on. But from what I have experienced, it has the same problems that the first two areas have. Massive sightlines, weird, blocky routes, and odd geometry. TL;DR huge sightlines that cover massive areas, and the first choke right after the 1st capture point can completely kill the rest of the map if BLU gets stuck there. Water and boat is a nice gimmick that doesn’t feel painful to play, but the major problems hold back the potential.

The whole map feels like a spiral downwards with extremely long and straight sections without many alternative ways to go through them. The entire map consists of 90 degree right turns with downward slopes that goes all the way to last, without much variety to spice things up. The framerate in the entire map is also horrible, with many errors in the console indicating something is wrong with the map. There is also no respawnroom visualizers in RED spawn, meaning a BLU player can walk into spawn and spawncamp everyone and ruin the entire game. As well as this, the door that leads through the tunnel and onto A is bugged, and if a player stands in it when it’s supposed to close, it never closes, meaning that BLU can have easy access directly into RED spawn. Lastly, you have no visualizers on BLU spawn, but what seems to be a trigger_push? Even with these bugs that let BLU spawncamp RED, they still had a tough time pushing the cart because of how far it actually is, and how far they have to push it by RED spawn. Lastly, there isn’t any real area for RED to defend except for last, as the entirety of the map consists of long, straight paths with no cover or alternative routes. TL;DR, severe bugs involving spawn rooms, horrible framerate with errors indicating something is wrong, and the layout is too straight and open for RED to have any chance to defend.

Although the map isn’t detailed at all, the gameplay in this is so much fun. You’ve integrated height variation and angles in such a great way that makes playing any class fun to do. I also forgot that this map was made for the checklist contest, because I didn’t even notice any obvious “I put this here just to get a check”, which is something that many people didn’t do. Only real flaw I can think of is last, as most of the time BLU was stopped completely and wasn’t able to push in. But other than that, the entire map is really fun to play on. TL;DR, great height variation and angles, amazing use of the checklist system, last is flawed.

One of the only maps in this contest that I’ve played since A1, and it’s certainly changed a lot. The only thing that has stayed roughly the same is the beginning area of the first stage, and even that has been slightly altered. As of now, the map plays well and doesn’t seem to have too many problems, but that’s also one of the things that has left me stuck. I can’t really find something about this map that makes it stand out on it’s own. The warpgate idea seems neat, but nobody really notices it, and it doesn’t really feel like something to hold the map up as it’s own thing. In my opinion, the strongest parts of this map are the finals for both stages. Specifically, stage two’s last is what made me vote a yes for this map, as something about it was really fun to play on. The highground is evenly balanced for RED and BLU, but it is also easily defendable for RED. TL;DR, map plays well, and seems well balanced, but there isn’t much about it other than that. Second stage last is really fun tho.

This map was easily the hardest map to vote on, as it does so many things right, yet so many things feel flawed. I can tell that you two have put a huge amount of effort into making this map playable (given how awful the first version was), as well as giving it it’s own charm. However, as much fun as it was to play, I cannot ignore the flaws that this map contains. The worst issue this map has for me is that a lot of the map is very flat and long, meaning that the sightlines are awful in some places. On nearly every point in the map, there is at least one or two sightlines that a sniper can exploit with little to no risk. I have seen you slowly iron these out over time, but some of them seem to be permanent. Second issue I feel is that the first area where BLU spawns is massive, and RED can’t really defend much around it. This makes it feel as the whole area is just fluff to increase walk times for BLU. However, I am willing to forgive these issues for the fact that the entirety of the map’s layout was really enjoyable to play. I feel as if I am the only person with this opinion, but I love how the middle of the map plays, especially the area before last. And honestly, I can’t really think of what makes it fun to play. It might be that even though a lot of the map is flat, the geometry and surroundings are varied which helps change the flow of a match. The map has played well enough for me to give it a yes vote, but just barely from no opinion. The two main flaws of this map hold back the potential that I see in it. TL;DR, map has a lot of potential, looks really nice, and is very much fun to play on, but the sightlines and flat ground/empty areas hold it back.