cp_haddou

CP cp_haddou rc2

GuttyKreum

L2: Junior Member
Aug 16, 2016
74
14
cp_haddou - A Frontline! desert mingle

A new Frontline! themed map mostly aimed at 6s.

Welcome to the deep desert of Morocco my friend. A war has been brewing like an obstinate sand storm on the horizon.

Blu has traveled many miles across the thirst-inducing desert to contest Red's capture of this unknown desert town.

Full image album here: http://imgur.com/a/Bf3wL

Using a town fountain model made by EArkham which can be found here: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/town-fountain-model.1739/

Also using Market Props by ChemicalAlia which can be found here: https://tf2maps.net/threads/whark-arabian-market-props.27466/

New claystone wall textures/strawroof textures and window/carving overlays/tile provided by me.
 
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Necrσ

aa
Nov 16, 2015
198
488
First of all, love the theme.

Heres some feedback just from walking around the map:
cp_haddou0000.jpg

I like what your trying to do with the fog but its a bit overpowering and doesnt transition that well when leaving spawn, also rather than being stuck inside that small room the the entire duration of setup time, let them out into the rest of their spawn.
cp_haddou0001.jpg

This is going to be super hard to push through as there is no other route for blu team to take, the area outside blu spawn feels pretty cramped as well. Maybe try to enlarge the area and add more routes for the attacking team

hope this helped :)
 

GuttyKreum

L2: Junior Member
Aug 16, 2016
74
14
First of all, love the theme.

Heres some feedback just from walking around the map:
cp_haddou0000.jpg

I like what your trying to do with the fog but its a bit overpowering and doesnt transition that well when leaving spawn, also rather than being stuck inside that small room the the entire duration of setup time, let them out into the rest of their spawn.
cp_haddou0001.jpg

This is going to be super hard to push through as there is no other route for blu team to take, the area outside blu spawn feels pretty cramped as well. Maybe try to enlarge the area and add more routes for the attacking team

hope this helped :)

Thanks for the feedback!

I'll consider opening up the rest of the Blu for the next release. The map size is aimed at 6s, I should have originally stated that (main post now updated!)
 
Jul 30, 2014
75
153
generally the first public release of a map doesn't start at rc1 lol.

I'll start with the massive problem i see in the design.
orYbcee.jpg


You have several spawn exits with some with height , which is good, but is made kinda pointless because they all empty into 1 place. you only need to spam this one small area and you will hit people leaving from ALL the doors.

tHUMAQ0.jpg


After that you have this hard choke. If you are blue there is no way at all to flank through this. Generally hard chokes suck in tf2.




And some other stuff.

mCjCsNr.jpg


Why keep this door locked during setup if there are other locked gates in front of it?

wLh13oI.jpg


I really hate this low down sticking out clipping, super annoying to play with. Just let me pass through the straw roof.

dTHT7mO.jpg


What is this?

and finally, how is this map frontline? I don't see any signs of war anywhere on the map.
 

GuttyKreum

L2: Junior Member
Aug 16, 2016
74
14
generally the first public release of a map doesn't start at rc1 lol.

I'll start with the massive problem i see in the design.
orYbcee.jpg


You have several spawn exits with some with height , which is good, but is made kinda pointless because they all empty into 1 place. you only need to spam this one small area and you will hit people leaving from ALL the doors.

tHUMAQ0.jpg


After that you have this hard choke. If you are blue there is no way at all to flank through this. Generally hard chokes suck in tf2.




And some other stuff.

mCjCsNr.jpg


Why keep this door locked during setup if there are other locked gates in front of it?

wLh13oI.jpg


I really hate this low down sticking out clipping, super annoying to play with. Just let me pass through the straw roof.

dTHT7mO.jpg


What is this?

and finally, how is this map frontline? I don't see any signs of war anywhere on the map.

All of my maps were released here as RC first ;-). It's just the way I like releasing maps. I'm not saying it's the best or most efficient way.

I am having the map tested for 6s as it was designed for it. The choke should be less of a problem as the defending team shouldn't be defending the first point that close to Blu spawn. If it is too much of a problem it will be fixed.

The issue with the gate I understand and will most likely be changed in the next release. I may change the straw roof ends to a func_brush in future releases to make them non-solid.

Those are part of the stairs from the room on the other side back when the map was designed differently. I thought they looked kind of neat there so I kept them.

There are a number of Frontline! models in the map (mostly on the outskirts such as a Jeep, Armored Car, Bike, Fighter plane. North Africa was part of WW 2 so I thought it would fit the theme nicely.
 
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Jul 30, 2014
75
153
All of my maps were released here as RC first ;-)

I'll be honest, I think this is one of your biggest issues with mapping. Proper alpha testing is incredibly important as it's when it's easiest to do big structural changes. The fact any major changes to your maps at RC1 require ripping up huge amounts of detailing means you are so much less willing to make major changes after proper testing.

I really think there is a major issue with the hard choke, but there is 100% an issue to the fact all your blu spawn exits lead to 1 point. This is bad design that would (should) have been pointed out 1st test of the alpha of this map.

As for "it's fine because it's for 6's", there isn't a single map in 6's which doesn't work in pubs. the design principles tend to be stricter when designing for 6's, not more forgiving. Also on the topic of 6's, this style of A/D has never been played in any modern version of 6's. Gpit style (i.e. an A point and a B point that can be capped in any order then a C last) has, but fell out of favour 2 years ago. You might really struggle getting much attention for this map from the 6's community.
 

GuttyKreum

L2: Junior Member
Aug 16, 2016
74
14
I'll be honest, I think this is one of your biggest issues with mapping. Proper alpha testing is incredibly important as it's when it's easiest to do big structural changes. The fact any major changes to your maps at RC1 require ripping up huge amounts of detailing means you are so much less willing to make major changes after proper testing.

I really think there is a major issue with the hard choke, but there is 100% an issue to the fact all your blu spawn exits lead to 1 point. This is bad design that would (should) have been pointed out 1st test of the alpha of this map.

As for "it's fine because it's for 6's", there isn't a single map in 6's which doesn't work in pubs. the design principles tend to be stricter when designing for 6's, not more forgiving. Also on the topic of 6's, this style of A/D has never been played in any modern version of 6's. Gpit style (i.e. an A point and a B point that can be capped in any order then a C last) has, but fell out of favour 2 years ago. You might really struggle getting much attention for this map from the 6's community.

I really don't mind making changes when needed and I will be making changes to the map. I never said "it's fine because it's for 6's, I said it may be less of an issue. I've spoken with a few comp players who want A/D to make a comeback which is part of the reason why I made the map.

I hope my replies are not coming across as hostile to you. They are not intended to be.
 

Crowbar

Spiritual preprocessor
aa
Dec 19, 2015
1,455
1,297
I guess RED will defend whatever good place to defend they have once they have the opportunity to, without even thinking if they should.
 

Yrr

An Actual Deer
aa
Sep 20, 2015
1,308
2,743
if you want proper feedback on your map, especially from comp, you've gotta have it open for testing from early undetailed alphas so that people can suggest much much bigger changes

starting in rc is just an awful awful idea and a way to ensure your map gets written off as irredeemable if it has flaws
 

Zed

Certified Most Crunk™
aa
Aug 7, 2014
1,241
1,025
Those textures are really visually busy and don't fit the TF2 style well at all.
 

GuttyKreum

L2: Junior Member
Aug 16, 2016
74
14
Those textures are really visually busy and don't fit the TF2 style well at all.

I will be fiddling around to generate less contrast for the next release. Thanks for pointing that out!

if you want proper feedback on your map, especially from comp, you've gotta have it open for testing from early undetailed alphas so that people can suggest much much bigger changes

starting in rc is just an awful awful idea and a way to ensure your map gets written off as irredeemable if it has flaws

I am pretty bad about integrating myself into communities as I tend to be a bit of a non-talkative hermit and I definitely feel I missed out on this one by not having you fine folks help out while my maps were in alpha. This is something I will be doing for future maps.

Edit: I do like discussing map design and theory as well. If anyone feels inclined, feel free to add me on Steam. Perhaps there could be some full-on collabs in the future on map projects.
 
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GuttyKreum

L2: Junior Member
Aug 16, 2016
74
14
Changes:

-Added a second exit from the Blu spawn to help prevent choking hazards.

-Reduced cap time on first point by 10 seconds.

-Removed fountain model and replaced it with a pedestal model to make it easier to jump on/maneuver around near the final point. (Your fountain model is beautiful, EArkham. I am sad to remove it).

-Moved palm tree near the back of the curved divider beside the final point. (I found that backing up along the divider you ended up getting caught on the tree).

-Added a clipping brush to all but one of the market stand models so you don't get stuck rubbing against them.

-Removed the majority of the hip-high wall near the final point to increase maneuverability.

-Removed market stand from the Gardens area near the final Point to increase maneuverability.

-Rotated the palm tree in the middle of the Gardens area to make it easier for a class like Scout to jump onto the smaller hedges before jumping onto the higher hedges.

-Added a medium healthpack into the tunnel that connects from the broken down tower route to the final point.

-Moved Palm tree that was above the first point slightly to help prevent getting caught up against it.

-Removed 'L' shaped hedge from above and behind the first point. Raised the ground to match the slope to effectively create more ground to easily move on.

-Increased the height of the building above and behind the first point and removed some straw roof ends to increase maneuverability.

-Moved the indoor market in the lobby near Blu spawn exit into the wall to increase maneuverability.

-Changed the majority of prop urns from solid to not-solid in major areas to increase maneuverability.

-Changed/added a new texture for the building behind and above the first point to help refresh the visuals. Also added some wooden supports to the corners of buildings I found were too noisy/hard to see the edges of.

Album: http://imgur.com/a/WvE7p (basically same screenshot angles)

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
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