[WIP]cpl_snaketemple

Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
aa
May 19, 2008
1,767
2,820
Cat pretty summarised what happened, we sat around, the carts never collided, took some time to figure out what did what and it wasn't exactly fun.

Also, sometimes you spawn facing a death pit... had quite a few people (myself included) spawn and instantly die as we tried to get out.
 

Cat™

L1: Registered
Oct 16, 2008
27
5
Also, sometimes you spawn facing a death pit... had quite a few people (myself included) spawn and instantly die as we tried to get out.

Hahaha, Yeah that was hilarious. I spawned, it was pretty dark, running forward and before I knew it I was dead again.
 

Dox

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Oct 26, 2007
588
62
same as above, you need to turn those spawns around. also, at one point i was standing by the cart and a cliffl ledge pushed me into the cart. I couldnt get out so the cart had a dispenser AND a medic attached too it till a sniper killed me (no dispenser was gobbled up, just referring the natural cart mechanics, but a cart gobbling up a dispensers and sentries would be funny too)
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
Yes, there are some spots to check for collisions. Still rarer than before, though.

To the main critic, well, I can only say that players have to split, both to win and to make the map fun. This I can only lure people into (hence the Uber thing) but I may never force. With splitting teams, it can end in an stalemate, but with nice action in between. This is a direct consequence of the gameplay mode, nomatter what can I do.

If I turn things so as to set a very slippery slope, the team with a few individuals who know the map can win in under 3 minutes (setting a barrage in appropriate location, pushing, triggering uberspeed, win). But it's the same thing for steel and some other maps....
 
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andysss456

L2: Junior Member
Sep 28, 2008
56
9
I think that in order to really appreciate any feedback, you need finalaize a layout. I know that you're redesigning your core layout, so keep on that path. Once you have that, you need to better orient the player, it feels a little confusing directionally. Otherwise the gameplay idea is pretty genius, so you need just need to get a good layout.

Before you do that, any talk of spawn problems are really kind of pointless.
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
Well, I may imagine a new layout with far more gameplay possibilities, terraces, bunkers etc. But what if, at the root, this gameplay mode is fun only to teams servers of FFA servers with some kind of coordination ? Is the future of this mode worth many many more hours of work ?
 

andysss456

L2: Junior Member
Sep 28, 2008
56
9
Well i highly doubt that the gamemode will be adapted by anyone else, considering all of the work needed, plus there is only so much that can be done with it. However, your map deserves the most dedication that you can give it, make it the best map you can, and it will be a considerably unique game style, one that should be fun in small doses.
 

Zwiffle

L6: Sharp Member
Jun 24, 2008
269
161
I kind of agree a lot with what people said. The advice I would give you is this:

Shorten the track a lot. It takes quite a while to get near the enemy. I would think it could be something maybe 1/2 to 3/4 as big as it is, or possibly make the cart move a little faster if you can, or both.

Move the spawns back (or just move the track closer to the center.) Give each team a distinct spawn a little ways away from the track. Right now the map doesn't feel like either side owns a distinct portion of the map, and I think that's bad. A team should feel a little confident when they're on their own side, closer to their spawn, and a little nervous when they get near their opponents' spawn. But the spawns shouldn't be so close that when a player opens their spawn door they're right in view of the track.

I know these might sound a bit contradictory, but the overall point I'm trying to get at right now is balance. The game mode is really good imo, but it needs to be tweaked and balanced a lot. It definitely requires a lot of team work, more so than any other game mode, and while I like that, it probably hurts it more than it helps. Because both teams are doing so much at once, it's hard to get enjoyment out of it. But again, if you tweak it so the games go a bit faster and each side of the map feels distinct and 'safe' to the team that controls it I think the mode could really work.

Also, try to make the track a little more interesting if possible. Make some hills and valleys the cart moves and up down on or something. A flat circle is hardly interesting.
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
There are two major issues with those propositions

-2 defined spawns. There will be a moment where both carts will be way nearer of the hostile zone that the players spawn. It may be fine but what when the cart cross this point ? Have players to go in front of the hostile spawn ? Should I exchange them ? Give one of them to the other team ?

-shortening the track. Good for quick action, very bad to get any sens of territory, though. Imagine with an half lenghty track, it would takes a fews seconds for scouts and pyro to land on your base. How engineers would be supposed to build anything ? I fear a "deathmatch syndrom"

I don't mind trying to tweak it a lot, but things are pretty delicate. Maybe my best bet is making a more versatile layout along the track, with plenty of vertical play, and so on. Do you think I may also have some path that is more easy to use when going into reverse direction (with chutes etc) or maybe the contrary, somme passage more friendly to use when going in the direction of the carts ? I'm just afraid all this work would be void eventually.

I'll move the spawns back anyway, sounds like something good. Do you want me to shorten a bit AND remove any central accès ? This would avoid people coming from everywhere. All considered, I'm more likely to keep all entites and remove everything else, and start the layout from scratch (would allow me to modify track lengh, access, verticality.

This aside, I may have a new tweak to have a more dramatic uber speed without making it excessively powerful. From now, it is 10s long, and hardly a game killer, it's more closing in onto the hostile team. What I propose (and note this a thing players have not to know) is slowly increasing the uber speed effect with time elapsed without triggering it. Say 1s per minute, by instance. Triggering the über speed very quickly for teamplay/luck reasons would result into the nice push, but triggering it after a 10 minutes struggle will award players with a killer move.

PS : I wouldn't mind any feedback from people who have played it with players knowing the mechanics.

EDIT :



So far snake is like the upper drawing, with main track un green and secondary paths in orange.
Should I aim for the lower schematic, with a comparatively smaller tracks, with secondary zones all along and spawns farther from the action ?

If you do have some proposition for the spawns, a little schematic would be gladly welcomed.
 
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UKCS-Alias

Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?
aa
Sep 8, 2008
1,264
816
You can make 4 respawns for each team which are placed close to each other but not inside each other.

See the image below for the example. In there the boxes are the respawn rooms and the lines are the routes to the cart (they dont have to be at exactly that place - they can also be on the outside).

That way you dont get spawn killing but allow respawning on all areas. They dont have to be big. In badlands valve for example made the 2nd and 3rd respawn just simply a small box.
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
Well, I don't think spawnkilling happens because the spawns are common. It does happen because the CP controlling the spawn is too near the spawn itself, thus causing two troubles :
->to conclude the push you have to spawnkill.
->if you loose control of your cart near the CP, it's "giving" the hostile free access to the cart.

So I may decide upon a totally new layout with the following guidelines

->track overall shorter
->far less straight lines
->vertical variations of the track
->spawns farther from the track
->secondary zones sourrounding the track, and giving vantage points
->no central passages (only one way only exit routes for central spawns)
->CP would be set a bit before the spawn.
->the most powerful defensive positions will be set just after a spawn and not before : the cart is likely to be blocked near its team spawn rather than the hostile one. For instance the canyon of this version works quite well, people get entrenched at the start of the track and not in the end. The interior areas don't work well in that respect.

What do you think ?
 
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UKCS-Alias

Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?
aa
Sep 8, 2008
1,264
816
Its true that behind a spawn area the cart is most likely to become taken. In donut that area is usualy cousing the stalemates as its rare to break a defence of 10 players. In front of a spawn its still hard but usualy alot more balanced.

Further spawns dont allways work. They make less enemys arive at the cart but remember that your own team also has that problem in reaching the cart. I think making the CPs further in front of the spawn is better. Still, if the spawn killing remains then i think you need to have 2 exits where 1 is the normal one and 1 is a alternative route. When the cart passes then block the mainroute. this only couses them to slow down when the cart is about to pass but allows people to still get to the other side of the map without getting spawn killed.

Dont completely change the map. Just make some areas change when the cart reaches a specific place (ie. if the cart is close to the spawn force people to take a alternative spawn route - when the cart has passed set the old route back and block the alternative one).
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
I already have two exits for each spawn. I think the best bet is to set a rather direct exit in the direction of the circuit (clockwise) and a longer one into the opposite direction/upper ground. Easy to go out and push, less to block an incoming cart. This + further spawns.

I'm starting back from zero because this will allow me to put more varied layout, with vertical moves and so, without having to deal with already positionned material. The entities are grouped in separate rooms easy to port from one map to one another.
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
I'm still not sure about the new layout. It will feature more alternance between narrow and large zone, with the narrowers path in the temples rather than the outside. So far, i'm focusing on something like this. Secondary path will be spread in the 4 main "areas". And no direct path will exist between the two temple (or maybe yes, but quite narrow and only spy friendly, perhaps)



Of course, zones following a slope will be more protected than the area after a climb.
I'm just not fixed about the spawn and their acces. I want people to avoid aving to spawnkill to get a point but at the same time I don't want taking a spawn to be a huge immediate advantage. Maybe I'll try with locking/unlocking doors.
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
So... I'm having a long reflexion on the spawn mechanic.

We can agree, in linear maps the ideal situation is always :
attackers spawn ---- objective ------ defenders spawns.
If the map is quite long, the objective should once taken, make the defenders spawn fall back and the attackers spawn advance

This is quite the situation in snaketemple when both team are balanced. But because the territory forms a loops, big problems arise when one team is nearing completion.

*The mechanic in use for the moment has some drawbacks
-->to make the final "push" you have to fight against freshly spawned opponents. (but that's an issue in many maps)
-->sentries and defense installed near a spawn might spawnkill the other team once they take the spawn.
But it has many many pros :
-->simplicity for code and understanding by players
-->more importantly, players are always put in the same situation : our cart in front, their cart behind


All other options might help with the issue but are rather complicated to do, to understand, and don't follow the "our cart in front, theirs in back" rule.

A short summary :

*putting controlling CP in front of the real spawning zone : no spawnkill to "finish" the push. But more chance of being spawnkilled in the newly aquired spawn. Small parts of the map are defensively null
*capping in a two time mechanism. Point in front the spawn deactivate the spawn, point behind, effectively caps it. : avoid spawnkill to take and spawkill once the spaw is active. But how should I handle the situation when a team lose all it's spawns ?
*always two equidistant spawns : once the cumulated distance of both cart reachs the half of the track, spawns are rotated by 90° : removes entirely lose of all spawns issue. Avoid most spawnkill to push. But can create a spawn behind some defenses and thats a bad bad thing...

Well, if you have some clues of what you would favor... Of course careful spawn placement can alter and diminish issues, but then I should design them after having chosen a spawn mechanic.
For people who played this map several times, what are your feelings about this ?
 
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UKCS-Alias

Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?
aa
Sep 8, 2008
1,264
816
You cannot prevent getting defenses behind a spawn when you have rotating spawns. Also, why would you worry about it. Its quite rare that people will wait for that moment and even if they do their team is missing a man all the time.

And the good point is that engineers have a risk from both sides when a player decides to wait in the spawn. And immagine if a engineer manages to build a teleporter behind the enemy. I think its only a good thing that people can make such decisions, it can bring alot more fun
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
It can creates some interesting events that people get to come from different directions. Teleporters are currently underused. Maybe, setting higher walking distances but moderate track lengh could help this.

This a variation of the mechanic currently used.



There would be no more capture point visible by players, but rather "check points" that will be signaled through various elements. I'll reference the color on the schematic, not actual teams colors
When a cart crosses a red checkpoint, it disables the spawning room that follows. If a team had one last spawn room, it is sent to emergency Spawn.
When a cart crosses a blue checkpoint, it activates the spawn room just behind. Then the pushing team will spawn there.

It effectively separates chasing the hostile team and advancing the forward spawn into two different events. This should let people build heavy defence without any fear of spawnkilling anyone.

I think that there is no solution to prevent the end of the round becoming a bloody mess. It's not a real problem, maybe. Franctic last chance defence is always a mess.

PS : one last and quite "extreme solution", though elegant is to change the goal of the map. Winner is the team that cap the 4 points. No more emergency spawn and whatever. I'll only miss the "hit" the cart ending though :(
 
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Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
I'm still gathering experience about the pros and the cons to decide upon a new layout. But since I couldn't stay inactive (or else I would have given up and try an classical map) I've begun setting up things.





(blu zones are not in playable area)
This track can be run in less than 30" by a pyro, to give an idea of the length. For the record, the previous one could be run in more or less 35".
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
Actually, I've chosen to modify the current layout. Outer areas will be enlarged, more interesting zones for setting ambushes (and bypass them) added, spawn set further apart with more protective exits, and the map will be more signed to help people find their way.

displacements will modify the area size

I just discovered how painful its is to decompile/recompile models :cry: but here I am.


PS : is there is a good tutorial about how to handle animated textures ?
 
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