[WiP] cp_tributary

ChronoTriggerFan · Sep 14, 2008

cp_tributary current build: Alpha 8
Author: ChronoTriggerFan

cp_tributary takes place around a tributary, leading to a river with villages and towns surrounding it. Red team is planning to poison the river, to collapse the civilizations depending on the main river for a water supply. Blue team, in favor of the riverside villages, attempts to stop Red team's efforts and shut down their operation. Will Blue succeed and pull the plug on Red's plan? Will Red overcome Blue's efforts and poison the river?

Screenshots:

EDITDue to my lack of free time, i won't update the pictures for every build.

Known issues:
Cap A and B's water is red in reflection. This is a cubemap problem
If you fall into the water in Blu's spawn, you probably won't be able to get out.

Things I'm looking for:
Is the map balanced for each class?
Do the cap times and add times need to be adjusted?
Do respawn waves need to be modified?
Where would some beneficial locations of health and ammo be?

Download Tributary Here

MangyCarface · Sep 15, 2008

Looks solid, want to test it

toutfou · Sep 15, 2008

I really like the theme you're going for, super interesting!

I'm testing my own level tomorrow with around 12 others, after that we might jump on your level for a bit and give it a spin.

My first comments would be the size of the level. I think A and B are fine, although there's a lot of empty space in C that could quite easily fit another CP, or be a more interesting place for C.

Secondly, water access - Whenever I fell in the water, I hated it - because access to get back out was limited. Especially for Blu's spawn. Some other access routes to get back out would be nice, swimming all the way back to the ramp takes some time - wouldn't want to be a heavy

I can also see sentries dominating the underwater path from blue spawn. Maybe add some cover to allow for flanking?

ChronoTriggerFan · Sep 15, 2008

I think it would be great to get some testing tomorrow. However if its not after 2:40 ish or so mountian time, i might not be able to make it.

Mangy suggested making some water bank areas on the water paths, which would render sentries useless if underwater. But usually if you actually have a team and not a group of 12 people doing nothing, sentries don't last long. Play testing will reveal if such things are needed or not.

Also I do think C needs some work. If play testing proves the "tower" building useless which it probably will, its going to be removed, and would shorten the size of C by about 1/4 its current size.

For the falling in the water concern in the blu spawn, I'm going to add some rails on the catwalks so that there are no accidental falls or anything.

toutfou · Sep 15, 2008

ChronoTriggerFan said:
I think it would be great to get some testing tomorrow. However if its not after 2:40 ish or so mountian time, i might not be able to make it.

Nah, it will be 6.30PM Western Australian Time

So I'm guessing even if you could, you might be somewhat lagged! I'll record a demo if we do play though and forward it on if you're interested in looking at it.

Also I do think C needs some work. If play testing proves the "tower" building useless which it probably will, its going to be removed, and would shorten the size of C by about 1/4 its current size.

Yeah i didn't really like the tower - I was running around as scout and running up those ramps was tiresome even as the fastest class

See how it pans out.

ChronoTriggerFan · Oct 4, 2008

Well, a2's been released! Download and give some nice feedback, would you?

Dox · Oct 4, 2008

Too open, you need multiple routes out of the water as well.

tenaciousg · Oct 4, 2008

i agree with dox here, some paths need to be playerclipped aswell cause i fell through them. just gonna take A to C example, the square A side. also i dont know if its your intention to let scouts up to the spawn tunnels B side but i was able to get up using the tunnel ramp that travels from A to B. the whole size of it has to be re-evaluated though and with so much water in the map i dont see many people playing pyro(yay!)

ChronoTriggerFan · Oct 5, 2008

Well, to be honest about all the size complaints, we were only playing 4 v 4 matches. You need a full server to get the full experience, which is getting hard to come by

. The ramp up to A's passage to Blu's spawn, i'd thought i'd leave in to increase strategy. There is another way to get past that, and any sentries that might be in there, by taking the tributary route. However you could just as easily blast your way through there, but its more fun to mess with the red engineers that way.

The other issue, with falling into the water when you didn't mean to, I'm solving by putting rails/planks of wood there. The particular passage Tenacious is talking about, A-C, should have had planks, but I needed to get the map out fast for gameday. They will return in a3, but for now you can just hop across, which isn't too difficult.

Now the issue with pyros. I think pyros work effectively, even though there is loads of water in. When I'm a pyro, my tactic is to try and scare another person into the water, which puts them at a major disadvantage. This teaches people to look before they jump into the water because placing sentries in the water is oh so fun

Just don't fall in yourself and you are good!

ChronoTriggerFan · Oct 17, 2008

Tributary_a3 is out! Change log includes:

Added railings to most of the walls leading to water, to prevent accidentally falling in intense combat
Added wooden walls, in place of rails in some parts, to provide cover and break up the map a bit.
Lowered a portion of the ground near the A-C path, so you can climb out of the water there.
Improved health and ammo placement based on playtests.
Moved a building in Cap B forward a bit to accommodate the raised terrain.
Added a model bridge in Blu's spawn.
Added back in the capture area tape and overlays, which mysteriously vanished in a2.
Modified Cap A's capture zone, adding in the walkway attached to the ramp on the back.
When Blu captures A or B, they will now lose 3 seconds off of their respawn wave time
Redid Paths A-C and B-C, as in large playtests, they were easily guarded and Blu could barely get into the area, let alone destroy Red's defense
Decreased the size of the tributary in Cap B, and moved the cap building up where the ground was added, to decrease time to get to the cap point
Added a new path into the Cap B building, on the right side of the building.
Improved Red's spawn, so that both exits from the spawn are easily accessible
Fixed the capture point signs, so they now will read capturepoint instead of resupply when capped by Blu.
Improved Cap C, so that is it inside an unfinished building, providing minal cover to Blu while capping.

roninmodern · Oct 20, 2008

Really looks like there's potential here. Just ran through it as blu.

I especially like the area at cap point C with the dam.

Arhurt · Oct 20, 2008

CTF, I like how you laid out the buildings, and I'm sure that it will look great once detailed!

Just one suggestion though, from my own experience. If people tell you they think the map is mtoo big they are probabbly trying to predict how it would play with more people, and not be taking only the 4v4 experience into account. I would have saved a lot of work in my map if I had addressed these comments early on.

Keep up the good work man, and I can help you make a strategy guide for your map when your are (mostly) done

TheDarkerSideofYourShadow · Oct 25, 2008

Oh noes, I'm actually posting here. I like the changes you've made since the first two incarnations I've played. The partial building at C is very nice, I like the improvement.

I still think there needs to me more cover on the top of the dam. But you said you're working on the building up there, so I'll hold off on feedback there until I see what you've done.

On another note, just something I noticed.

tenaciousg · Oct 25, 2008

it's still big, C especially feels too big and the water is still dominant in the map but thats clearly intentional.. the wooden blockers that border those walls are just that.. acting as walls there needs to be spacing. i think 2 should be max for having them close together if you wanted to put more they would have to be spaced seperately of those 2.

ChronoTriggerFan · Oct 25, 2008

I'm not understanding clearly what your saying. The wooden walls are supposed to be walls, to provide cover from snipers right when they come into the area, etc. All spacing will do is provide less cover, making the map feel even more open.

And the size issue, I've even measured the size of the gravelpit counterparts, and they fit within the boundaries. From recent playtests, its been revealed that its playing fine in its current size and I'm not inclined to change it unless more proof is presented than just your opinion. If you find an instance where it does feel too big, feel free to take a demo of it and send it to me.

ChronoTriggerFan · Oct 27, 2008

Tributary a4 Released
Change log includes:

Modified the roof tiles on the Cap C building.
Removed the playerclips on the building roofs of Cap A, to see how well it works out.
Redid the health and ammo placement.
Modifications to Cap A, to make it easier to defend.
Added a building on the top water part of Cap C, replacing the small platform that used to be there.
Moved Cap C building closer to the dam, so make heavies jumping over there easier.
Removed catwalk from Red spawn to the Cap C building, and now has planks of wood leading to a lower platform than the building.
Removed various wooden board cover from the map.

I've sort of jumped off of the size issues and am now working on the small layout tweaks to make the map as balanced as possible, where I can get an equal amount of RED wins and BLU wins. Remember to check my blog for some inside development info by yours truly. But above all, I need your feedback, otherwise I'm getting my opinion and my opinion only on what to change, which is most likely going to make the map stay in alpha longer than necessary.

FreeLance_FoX · Oct 27, 2008

Hey mate, I just wanted to say how much I love your layout. I downloaded a3 yesterday and played it today, actually right before you released a4, and absolutely loved the layout. The balancing you're doing right now is very impressive (and we who try and convince our friends that custom maps are balanced thank you for it)!

Frankly if your aesthetics turn out to be as amazing as your creative process has been thus far I think this will be one of the greatest custom maps out there. I love maps with water already and your map is just a fantastic example of what mappers should strive for. <3

TheDarkerSideofYourShadow · Nov 1, 2008

You still haven't fixed the vertex alignment there. Its on the Blu path to A. Here's another visual issue.

I don't know why, but you've got red light shinning in there.

Overall, I like it. B is the point I've been able to defend, mostly I guess because it has more cover and is the higher ground, whereas at A I can't see a place where I'd be helpful as an engy, except for maybe right outside the spawn. I guess this is good as it captures the essence of gravelpit.

I don't think you need to change anything to fix the issue of my spawncampping. You've designed the map correctly so that there are two difference exits to the spawn and that they cannot be held with a single sg. The reason I was able to stay there for so long was because a) I had a medic, b) you guys didn't have the right classes the few times you tried to rush from b, and c) no one (that is until the person who killed me did it) went out the other exit and shot me from the far side. What it comes down to is that if you have a team that is that bad, you deserved to be spawn camped

Ravidge · Nov 2, 2008

I played this map yesterday, I don't check the forums very often but there was an event in steam so I joined. Never seen/heard of/played this map before (as with all the other maps we played)

All the points seemed fine to me, even B which may be a little rough to attack but it was far from impossible to get.

The only thing that bothered me was the water. After capping A together with a medic I jumped down the water, got lost the exact same moment, found my own spawn area with no way up, swam back found C and ran to B from there.
To be fair I didn't spend any time at all trying to figure out which path I was to take... but then again I never do, the problem was the water... It felt really painful to get lost while swimming with very few ways to get out of it. Getting lost on foot can always/probably be solved by rocketjumping so it isnt as frustrating.

And that spawncamping, was there ever a problem with it? There was several ways to counter it, it was neither imbalanced or unfair imo.

Nineaxis · Nov 15, 2008

A7 played pretty badly. The only effective place an engy can set up is outside red's spawn if they're BLU. There's no easy access to metal at B, no good sentry spot at A, and there's no point in trying to set up at C.

B is too big. Make it smaller, make the building only as large as you want the cap area to be, bring it down to scale and put metal in places convenient for engies. I seriously suggest looking at Gravelpit, their ammo pack placement and cap geometry, and emulating it. Right now it's just not good.

[WiP] cp_tributary

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