cp_observatory

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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Noticed in B1 that after the first round was won by the red team the rocket blast effect is still in place, making it virtually impossible to attack C because of the glaring white light and smoke from the rocket. Both teams experienced this.
Damn.. I thought I got rid of this bug. I think it's the same problem Steel has with it's smoke. I couldn't get it to reproduce in any of our private tests. Could it be a plugin causing it? I'll get it fixed asap

Players also complained of getting stuck in the Blu spawn area, especially if they spawned on the lower deck.
Now this is completely new to me, because I am sure I have not placed ANY spawn points on the lower deck, but I'll give it a once-over for b2.
 

flubber

L4: Comfortable Member
Nov 16, 2007
171
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We played full server on it for an hour or so tonight, conclusion : having three poitn to defend is really difficult,if you put one ingeneer on each point (already a third of the team and it's rarely durable since the other team will attack all together. You should maybe block B till A is taken (cp_steel like).
 

PMAvers

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 29, 2008
389
142
Damn.. I thought I got rid of this bug. I think it's the same problem Steel has with it's smoke. I couldn't get it to reproduce in any of our private tests. Could it be a plugin causing it? I'll get it fixed asap

It sounds like some sort of HDR issue, since it goes away if you have it disabled apparently.
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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We played full server on it for an hour or so tonight, conclusion : having three poitn to defend is really difficult,if you put one ingeneer on each point (already a third of the team and it's rarely durable since the other team will attack all together. You should maybe block B till A is taken (cp_steel like).

It's pretty hard to even reach C without capping or being a spy as you'd have to go through either A or B.

But I might be doing some map mechanic changes
 
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Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
We played this 7-7 tonight and had a good time. Everyone seemed to really like the map. Other than some people complaining about the light at C and one person getting stuck in the spawn doors, it was functionally pretty good.

One thing everyone agreed on was that it was just too hard to defend C while having to defend A and B. You basically force an engineer to stay there from the start. One suggestion was to lock off C until one of the other points was captured. That would solve it, but I think it complicates the map a bit. Perhaps make the cap time on C even slower so it's impossibly hard to cap until the other points are secured? You could have it 3X slower if the attackers don't have A or B, 2X slower if they only have A or B, and the same speed if they cap A and B.

Dunno. The balance just seems off. A good defensive team will ignore A and B and focus 100% on C.
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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Dunno. The balance just seems off. A good defensive team will ignore A and B and focus 100% on C.

I tested it on the 32 man Q servers, and that's what it ended up as. And it's impossible to attack, especially with that light in your face (it's actually kind of funny to see it)

At this point I can't even test the balance of A or B, where most of the action is supposed to take place.

Basically C is going to get a massive overhaul.

Sort of what I want:
No Points: Hard
One Point: Possible
Both Points: Easy

A team that only defends C should fail
 
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Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
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Someone also complained about the 20 second respawn timer. If you can balance the map without using long respawn times, people will be much happier. :)
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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that was a miscalculation on my part.

I'm still wondering how respawn waves work.

BLU is supposed to have a static 5-10 second respawn

RED starts with 5-10, similar to BLU, but must wait an additional 5 seconds for every point that BLU has capped

noone should have to wait any more than VALVe's default

If he still complains then tell him to join BLU :)

I don't want my map to become Corporation
 
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Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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Updated to Beta 2!

-Removed vent system
-Increased cap times for all points
-Made C harder to defend
-Fixed players getting stuck in doorways
-Fixed rocket launch not resetting at round end
-More optimization
-Added more healthpacks
-Fixed respawn times being too long
-Increased brightness in some areas
-Visual details to suggest deathpits
-Capturing B now prevents RED from directly accessing C

Had to do it promptly, as the rocket launch made Cap C unplayable, which unfortunately is also the most important part of the map.

Please tell me if the problem persists!
 
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kaplan

L1: Registered
Mar 29, 2008
21
2
Just tried out B2. Players are still getting stuck in the doorways. During a round, if you drop down from the Blu spawn room and hug the wall at a angle and attempt to exit the gate (the left one, didn't tried the right gate), the player will get stuck.

I wasn't able to witness if the rocket blast effect bug was fixed or not. Both teams won all the rounds played.

I realize that you want to have point C be a easy capture with points A & B captured, but I feel it provides an unfair advantage to the Blu team. Without direct access to C, the red team has to go all the way around to B to reach C. It makes it difficult to defend C and set up defenses when the Blu team is already there attacking the point.
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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Thanks!

I was actually talking about other doorways I've noticed but thanks for pointing the one at BLU out!

It seems I may have overcompensated on C, but I'm going to hold off any changes till I play a few rounds myself
 
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Shadow Scythe

L2: Junior Member
Aug 8, 2008
51
0
I haven't played this map yet, but maybe it's best to make the control points capture-able like those in Gravelpit. I haven't played it yet so I can't judge, however but it might be easier to balance that way.
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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What I might do is remove or reduce the respawnwave penalties RED gets when they lose CPs.
 
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Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
More feedback after beta 2...



I like the idea of having the death signs there, but it looks weird the way they're just stuck in the grates. Perhaps make a simple custom post and put a Mr Ick decal on it (or a Jolly Roger). :)



Going into this room from this side, you get caught on the floor brushes. People actually thought it was a 1-way door until they saw me crouch-jump through.



It's magic smoke! :) I like the effect of the smoke in that area, but it obviously shouldn't pass through the wall like that. Perhaps aim the effect out from the corner somehow?



Crouching along this edge makes really weird things happen. You'll want to noclip it.

As for point C, I thought I took a screenshot so I could doodle on it, but apparently I forgot. When a defender runs down onto the CP, you can't see the steps down to the main level until you're right on the edge, making it a gamble to even approach the edge in fast fights. I'm not sold on either set of stairs either (the lower ones or the 3 going all the way up). I'll detail my issues with each:

Lower stairs -
Although they're cool, these don't look natural and they don't really fit the room. I think you'd be better off adding some small outside platforms with straight stairs (or stairs that curve along the wall) and then wide walkways out to the middle. People moving downward in the room need an indication of where the steps are, so if you keep direct stairs up they should probably have a small railing.

Upper stairs -
These are so narrow it's still impossible for ubers to get up top. That relegates your team to going in with a demoman and hitting them from below. Pyros can also airblast attackers off very easily, which makes it impossible to attack if the defenders stay alive. If they die, the huge trek balances it out, but is kind of annoying. For the 3 sets of stairs, I'd recommend switching it to a single very wide stairway going up. Then consider adding an alternate path for the attackers. I'll detail this in a second.

One of the big complaints is how long it takes defenders to get to C if they've lost A and B. I'd recommend an easy, but effective way of adding another path into C from above. Here's how it would work...

Paths into C:
For defenders -
They'll always have the bridge and the long routes around.

For attackers -
a. They always have the long routes around.
b. Once they capture A, they get a new set of steps to the defender's spawn bridge (or a stairway directly into that control room).
c. Once they capture B, they get the shortcut doors outside their spawn opened.

This has a few effects -
a. Attacking ubers can come from the bridge, meaning red has to defend there as well. These ubers have easy access to any upper sentries.
b. Attacking spies can access C without having to go up narrow stairs.
c. Attackers will have to decide if they want to run a long way (or build a forward base, benefiting engineers) or attack directly.
e. Respawns for red can be lowered, since they'll have a harder time defending C.

My only complaint at that point would be lack of lower locations for sentries, which could be accomplished with the lower stair/platform/bridge idea, or some other way.

HTH. Sorry so long... we talked about it the whole time we were playing it. :)
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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No problem!

This has been the most detailed feedback I've recieved and I really appreciate it!

I like the idea of having the death signs there, but it looks weird the way they're just stuck in the grates. Perhaps make a simple custom post and put a Mr Ick decal on it (or a Jolly Roger).
I'm no modeller, but I can whip up something with a little brushwork/creativity



Going into this room from this side, you get caught on the floor brushes. People actually thought it was a 1-way door until they saw me crouch-jump through.



It's magic smoke! I like the effect of the smoke in that area, but it obviously shouldn't pass through the wall like that. Perhaps aim the effect out from the corner somehow?



Crouching along this edge makes really weird things happen. You'll want to noclip it.
Thanks for pointing them out!

As for point C, I thought I took a screenshot so I could doodle on it, but apparently I forgot. When a defender runs down onto the CP, you can't see the steps down to the main level until you're right on the edge, making it a gamble to even approach the edge in fast fights. I'm not sold on either set of stairs either (the lower ones or the 3 going all the way up). I'll detail my issues with each:
obs_b3-2.jpg

I'm a bit confused here so I drew up a quick sketch. I also thought making use of the upper balconies from the entrance would be a neat idea

One of the big complaints is how long it takes defenders to get to C if they've lost A and B. I'd recommend an easy, but effective way of adding another path into C from above. Here's how it would work...
I don't know, It's kind of hard to see many attackers liking to go that far around the map. I'd prefer a much more approachable method:
obs_b32.jpg

Something like this perhaps?

I might revert the bridge to how it was in b1, and I will probably remove any respawn penalties RED receives for losing CPs.

As an additional note, nobody seems to be commenting on A or B. Are they fine as they are now?


Thanks again for the detailed feedback!
 
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Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
that was a miscalculation on my part.

I'm still wondering how respawn waves work.

BLU is supposed to have a static 5-10 second respawn

respawn and capture time are doubled in game (valve's magic ^^). So if, you aim to maximum 10s, you should enter "5" in hammer. (This is NOT the case for all other time related entities)

Sorry we could not give more feedback on canarpc, we just played two rounds. It seemed to me C hardly had to be defended before A falls, and A can be kept for a long time. maybe pyros and heavies may have a bad time because all this roof gameplay is a bit much too soldier/demoman friendly. I don't have much to say about B, because it was no really defended.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
I don't know, It's kind of hard to see many attackers liking to go that far around the map.

Thing is, some of the better maps allow for forward bases by the attackers. On Dustbowl, Gravel Pit, Gold Rush, etc the attackers can get an engineer in a somewhat protected area and attack from there. Long routes are a good thing as long as they provide a strong tactical advantage (like attacking from the top of the room).
As an additional note, nobody seems to be commenting on A or B. Are they fine as they are now?

A is excellent right now. It plays pretty well and is a lot of fun. B is a little cramped and turns into a spam trap. I think it'd be better opened up a bit more. To be honest, though, most of the time people just attack A and then C, ignoring B. If people do head to B, it's because they figure it's an easy cap and they tend to get little resistance (similar to A on Gravel Pit in most games).

I'll get a screenshot of C and do a sketch myself. Not sure if it'll help, but it's worth trying. :)
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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Right!

A and B could make excellent forward bases!


You gave me some good ideas, and I'm also extending the usefulness of capturing B
 
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Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127


This would have been much easier with a stylus. :) Anyway, this is what I was suggesting instead of the lower stairs for C. They're just small platforms with stairs onto them, and then the platforms are connected to the middle with bridges. It'd make some good cover for sentries in the lower part as well.

These platforms could also simplify the upper stairs as well, since you could have a stairway on each side of the room, following the curve of the wall. They'd just go from the platform to the upper ledge. Then you'd just need one stairway in the middle, like b1a had, except you still might want to consider making it wider.

I'm sure there's a lot of ways to do it better, but this is the first thing that popped into my head while playing. :)
 
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