Is old criticism keeping our maps down?

TPC

TPC

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Nov 7, 2015
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(IK ABOUT THE FEEDBACK SECTION BUT SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR GAME DAY THIS IS IF A PERSON IS RUNNING AROUND THE MAP ALONE OR WHAT SO EVER)
Yea I was looking through my map's comments and I realized that a lot of the criticism on there was from version Alpha 1 and I wondering if people just go straight to discussions to see if the map is good or not obviously that makes sense even if you do have a picture from now you still don't know how it is but a lot of the criticism is from A1 and yes I understand there are loads of maps on tf2maps and some of the lesser known people get little to none feedback but the little feedback I have gotten has helped me greatly improve but there was one from A1 that had 3 agrees two days ago and now has 4 agrees and the map now in A4 looks way better then it did when it was in A1 was about releasing the map early --NOTE-- I understand how rigorous webpage making is but I think these two would help maps that don't get much feed back another thing I am mainly talking about visitors to the site who just dl the maps they might read only one feedback and be like that it is a bad map

Comments , Advice, Criticism, and Shia la buff grade "just do it" *
So to start off when posting something in the forums before you click ok you have to click on either comments, advice, criticism, and just do it And author should be allowed to upgrade and downgrade so if a comment is more like advice then they can do it with out the posters permission but if a criticism is more of a comment the author of the map has to state the reason why the downgrade is happening the person who wrote it will have a chance to review it before making a decision and click yes or no BE FAIR the numbers i put down are just guesses on who will agree just to mention the upgrade is probably not needed but it would make sense but I don't think any one would have time to do so im only suggesting it because the same thing isn't said in the correct section

Comments: They are comments so it isn't really adding to the map its more like how you felt the map was and just rambles the thing is that comments can be deleted by author so if its just gibberish it can be taken down but so they are the least serious of the four or in other words a personal opinion so if someone its just talking because of something someone said that would be a comment

Advice: More serious the advice is something that about 50% of people would agree with and is usually bent towards the author and not really the map the Advice section can be resolved so it will be flagged as resolved

Criticism: well I want to know what you think this is can be resolved

just do it: lets say you screwed up something but didn't notice it but someone did and should be fixed fast because it might hinder game play Things like game play changes, map decor changes, lighting changes, etc Should not be in here unless it is hindering the game also this should be used less and less over time
(can be resolved)

Well what do you think

*Shia la buff grade "just do it" is copyright lololololololol of Lunacy productions and the Shia la buff estate
and what ever Charity made that stupid video **

*its not actually copyrighted don't worry it's a secret to everyone
 
Fantaboi

Fantaboi

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Try to use a proper essay structure, this feels very hard to read and has basically no flow. I don't even know what this is though so essay structure might not even work, but regardless please try to structure it a lot better, it's very hard to read.

Avoid memes when doing a serious topic or inciting a discussion

Use actual examples, making up examples doesn't work because it feels like stereotyping. In my post about goal-orientated mapping I dug trough my maps and their feedback to prove my point.
 
Zed

Zed

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Aug 7, 2014
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You see those two keys next to "m" on your keyboard? Use them.
 
Dic Soupcan

Dic Soupcan

L1: Registered
Jul 25, 2015
14
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The purpose of the thread was not as a spelling check last time I checked...

Anyway, it shouldn't be a huge deal that somebody agrees with somebody's post. It's not like they're criticizing you on your a1 map anymore, they're just clicking a button that says agree. If people are doing that though, then they're just being dumb. You shouldn't get worked up over such trivial matters.

The suggestion itself is redundant however. I can just say "You really need to fix this part of the map, it makes it unplayable" as oppose to clicking a setting before hitting post.
 
Fantaboi

Fantaboi

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This thread can't be derailed if there is no train to begin with.
 
PyroDevil

PyroDevil

L3: Member
Sep 19, 2014
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Note: I am assuming that the criticism you are referring to is for koth_elpunto. If it is not, apologies.
Sorry for this wall of text.

I can understand how you feel. I was in a similar situation with a arena map about a year ago. It frustrated me that people gave me feedback, but never explained how to fix it. However, from that frustration, I learned something. You can't have someone telling you how to fix something. You need to learn to analyze the game flow, iron out the layout, understand how people react to the map. The thing about old criticism is that it is still valid if nothing has been done to change it. In that arena map, a frequent critique was the lighting and how most areas were too dark. I got the criticism in 5 versions of that map, and kept getting it because I did nothing to fix the problems.
Example
DNDbIYf.jpg


Now, I decided to look at koth_elpunto. My main concern is that there is no real layout too it. The top level is a big open space, giving snipers access to the other teams doors. Personally, I really don't like getting shot right out of spawn. Players from the other team can open your spawn doors as well. The lower level has a sightline that goes directly to the point. The map seems like a snipers paradise to me. Second, while I know this map is in alpha, I have to ask. Why are Red and Blu fighting over the island? Are they fighting for a resources? for a secret base? The map is also very flat as well. There are only two levels, and because of no real layout, there aren't any flank routes or interesting land marks. Both of these help make a map more interesting. Image a map like viaduct. How interesting would it be if there were no routes and everything was on only two levels? How should you fix it? I don't know. It's not my map. If there is one think that I've learned in my one year on this site, it is that people aren't going to tell you how to fix it. They can make suggestions and put forth ideas, but they won't tell you what to do.

As for game days, there are more opportunities for you to get a map tested. Almost every day, there is someone that hosts a impromptu test in the steam group chat. If you cant join the game when it is, that's ok. You can download a recording from the feedback site and watch the match. I've done it several times and it has helped me greatly. The !gf and !fb tools are just for quick notes. It needs to be you to watch the demo and understand what to change based on how act and how the rounds go. Ask things such as "Why are people only using this route?" "Is the spawn times too long or too short?" While each thing may seem little, it all has some effect on the rounds and the outcome.

tl;dr Old criticism is still valid if it is never addressed, don't rely on the feedback tool for all feedback, and map needs a better layout.
 
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Muddy

Muddy

Muddy
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Sep 5, 2014
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Dic Soupcan said:
The purpose of the thread was not as a spelling check last time I checked..
Click to expand...
Well it's kind of hard to stick to the original topic when it's almost impossible to understand what the topic is supposed to be.
 
Fantaboi

Fantaboi

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Even if he isn't fluent, there' still 2/3 points that prevent him from getting his message across

Edit: Also he heavily uses slang

My point is that he needs to make this post with a lot more effort and quality to incite a decent discussion
 
Ida

Ida

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Jan 6, 2008
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I agree with Fanta. Can you just... try again, but use shorter sentences and keep it focused? Maybe ditch the memes if you're trying to say something important. I feel like this might be a good discussion, but I honest to god read the whole thing and I don't have a clue what it means.
 
Fantaboi

Fantaboi

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Yes i'm going to double post.

So this post was fortunately just explained to me, as the following:

Is the reason our maps aren't being download, is because people will look at feedback from older versions and think it applies to newer versions?

The short answer is a strong: No. People will base the quality of maps on screenshots, and descriptions because they understand that the comment section is based on older versions based on the dates of posts.

If your map isn't getting downloaded, it's because it's only on TF2maps, maps need to be advertised and showcased to communities, the public and everyone you can think of because TF2Maps is to them a vendor intead of a place to regularly browse. It's like if Coca Cola was only sold at it's factory, not at markets.

Now in saying this, maps also should NOT be advertised until they are of sufficient quality, because THAT can lead to a negative reputation that affects the map forever, TF2Maps gives maps a place to grow without judgement.
 
Ida

Ida

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Fantasma said:
So this post was fortunately just explained to me, as the following:

Is the reason our maps aren't being download, is because people will look at feedback from older versions and think it applies to newer versions?
Click to expand...
I don't think negative reputation is something a lot of mappers need to worry about, unless they're like, both a horrible asshole and the absolute worst at mapping. I seriously doubt most people are gonna go look at obviously outdated feedback for a map and make up their mind based on that. People look at screenshots, maybe read one or two sentences, and then they probably know whether they wanna check it out or not.

I will disagree slightly with one thing Fanta said; I wouldn't advise against advertising your map in an early state, if you're confident in yourself, and you make sure people realize it's an early build. I mean, it probably won't knock anyone's socks off, but I wouldn't be that nervous about it. Even if the map comes off as really bad, the worst that can happen is that people look at it and go "well that looks bad, I'm just gonna ignore that," and then they forget about it. Heck, maybe they'll even be positively surprised later when they see that you've made it good! Point is, though, no one gets lynched over making a bad map. You ought to focus on positive attention instead.

Edit: Some edits, had a bad paragraph.
 
Pocket

Pocket

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Nov 14, 2009
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Is the reason maps aren't getting downloaded because they see critical posts that were made early on?

No.

The reason maps aren't getting downloaded is because only server operators have any need to download maps manually, and the only servers that run custom maps anymore, besides the competitive community, are our own.
 
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