Iron Gauntlet thing

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Alright, cool, let's move this elsewhere. Move this if it isn't the right forum, I wasn't 100% sure...

The way you all reacted to this is a fucking disgrace. I'm glad I'm finished with TF2 stuff soon, there's a lot of sour salty people here who blindly think that they're the good ones and it's everyone else being sour.

You showed your true colours today guys.

I mean, I can't speak for anyone other than myself. But I just saw the original thread and that's how I felt. I'm not a hateful person, at least I don't believe I am, but I saw him essentially admit that this update was created in order to get two of his maps picked up by Valve. I was shocked more than anything.

I'm not salty. I'm not sour. I'm not jealous. I have no personal grudge against the guy or anyone else. I'm sorry if I tossed up shit but I didn't feel comfortable not saying anything at all.
 

YM

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I saw him essentially admit that this update was created in order to get two of his maps picked up by Valve. I was shocked more than anything.

Someone creates a community initiative in order to better package their items for selection?

You and @tyler started a torrent of hate on the guy for doing something cool and giving us a heads up about it.

Frozen was the one who offered to host the page, Frozen encouraged him to post about it here, and you two jumped on him and started name calling and being total dickfaces about the whole thing.

I've been encouraging him to do something like this for ages, he's sitting on two great mvm maps, and has a third from another author (earkam but on their own they lack punch. as far as I'm aware there aren't any other good mvm maps that are floating around currently. So why shouldn't they be getting together and trying to package them up into an update? How dare they want to make something cool.

I think we can show that this is a cool contest for people to enter while also being critical of how it was presented to us, the motivations behind it, and discussing what TF2M's part in it is.
I think you guys have made TF2M's views abundantly clear, you all want absolutely nothing to do with this monster and his evil self promoting ways. If raising concerns was what people wanted to do, then that's what they should have done, not name calling and being needlessly rude to the guy.

I'm gobsmacked at how horribly everyone piled in and started hating on the guy who has done nothing wrong. I thought we were a community that helps people. But apparently anyone wanting to utilize the community to help their own goals needs our hate instead.

What the fuck guys?
 
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Jan 20, 2010
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Frozen was the one who offered to host the page, Frozen encouraged him to post about it here, and you two jumped on him and started name calling and being total dickfaces about the whole thing.

Whoa whoa. I never name called. I may have questioned his motives, but it wasn't without reason.

I am personally being very calm here so I'd appreciate you chilling out as well.

You obviously know Woozlez better than I. I know nothing about the guy besides him promoting this and admitting he did form this update in order to promote his maps. Now, you might not see a problem with that, but others do.

I'd personally like to hear why it is okay from you. Only because I might not know the whole perspective here and would like to learn.
 

tyler

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Hey, @YM, just wondering but have you ever read a single one of my posts in your life? Because every time we get into a debate (like this one), you don't seem to acknowledge anything I say and instead spend lines and lines berating anyone who would be stupid enough to even start a discussion in the first place.

Have to say it isn't shocking you'd side with Woozlez when taking advantage of pressure from Reddit/Facepunch is exactly what got Snowplow in the game.

My points (again) are this: One, it's not a community update. This is Woozlez asking people to make shit for him so he can make money himself. Two, Frozen should not be doing this kind of stuff without talking to the staff (which very evidently happened). I don't care if we use TF2M to help in community endeavors, I think that's a great idea, that is not my complaint at all. What I don't like is when there's no review of what "community" projects we're helping with. If Frozen feels like he has to make snap decisions or something maybe it's a sign that the entire thing should have been managed better from the get-go. It's about judgment and taking our jobs seriously--not because this is a No Fun Zone, but because we are one of the oldest TF2 communities and a huge, invisible cornerstone of the game. Aligning ourselves with dodgy contests doesn't maintain our image of integrity.

Please read my posts, then reply (that's the typical format of discussions). I'm tired of this shit you pull. Here's the first one. Here is the second. Stop replying to me like I'm some kind of moron that deserves no respect. Stop treating the other people here like they are idiots. Valid points have been raised by myself and others. Other Staff have weighed in on the topic. Follow the Thanks. I might be one of the only people saying this publicly, but I'm not the only one thinking it.

If you're going to have an opinion on this discussion at all, at least don't be a massive dickhead and actually read the discussion we've already had.

I didn't start a torrent of hate on anyone. I just called into question Woozlez' ethics and whether TF2M should be involved. I maintain we shouldn't, but it might be too late now.
 
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tyler

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You'll notice I was civil until YM started calling me a dickface, ignoring everything everyone has said, and dismissing the discussion with memey youtube videos. This is a trend with him; I'm not the first or only person to point it out, and it needs to be addressed. I know there's a record in the staff forum, or there should be--I've reported him for acting this way in chat and during tests, and I know others have too. Update it.
 

Fruity Snacks

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You'll notice I was civil until YM started calling me a dickface, ignoring everything everyone has said, and dismissing the discussion with memey youtube videos. This is a trend with him; I'm not the first or only person to point it out, and it needs to be addressed. I know there's a record in the staff forum, or there should be--I've reported him for acting this way in chat and during tests, and I know others have too. Update it.

You completely disregarded what I requested.

Should note, you did directly insult people (me included) before he made that post.

Again, tyler, I ask that you (And YM) try your best to remain civil and respectful towards each other.
 

tyler

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If you felt what I said about you was disparaging, perhaps you should adjust the image you've cultivated rather than complain. You are not the King of TF2M, and you do not have to do everything yourself. That's why there is a staff. I understand other staff often don't reply in a timely manner or at all, or don't have constructive feedback. I know that firsthand! But it doesn't give you license to do what you will or to act without consultation.

If you felt I insulted Woozlez, well, have you ever tried to say someone lacks a strong moral compass without just outright insulting them? It's hard. He fully and freely admits the contest is just for his own gain anyway. How can I insult someone after that? He's done all the work for me.

You're right that I could have probably phrased some stuff better, but frankly, even when I'm totally blunt I feel like no one is reading what I'm writing (and YM proves it). My only hope is that something positive comes of it. This shit will never change unless people start being blunt about what they think. It's like a TF2 map: if all the feedback is lukewarm and wishy-washy, the map never goes anywhere. If TF2M is going to associate with morally ambiguous contests, I am going to say something so that it never happens again.
 

fubarFX

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off topic: I feel like there's an undertone of a schism in tf2m lately. I'm both scared and excited to see it unfold itself.

I have this odd feeling that Valve has more or less given up control on tf2 and it's now our job to decide what direction the game will take. The gold standard is gone and it is turning into a free for all for everyone. Convince valve that the community is ready to support your content and they will probably put it in the game if it doesn't require too much effort on their part. If that means having promotion for content (quality content or else) then so be it. Now of course tf2m has /some/ visibility but I don't think it's really being proactive in taking center stage. So, in that stream of thought, ultimately I think the stuff tf2m decides to get involved in is mostly irrelevant. That's just how I feel tho, and that's a whole lot of off topic.

Edit: the core issue is probably that the whole that forms tf2m is not larger than the sum of its parts. Or so I feel.

Also I'm kinda curious to know what's the staff's take on this, what direction do they want to take and everything. I doubt it's even being discussed because tf2m has not exactly been known for being proactive in these things but I would be pleasantly surprised to hear about its current stance on the state of tf2 and tf2m as a whole. Is there a roadmap and where is it going?
 
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Zed

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I feel like Fr0z3n is too nice of a guy.
 

YM

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@tyler You can't just always assume that when people are calling you out on shit that they didn't read your posts.

It's getting tired because you do it to anyone who disagrees with you, stop doing it.

In this long post I've gone through and annotated all of the things that I was calling out as sourness/saltiness/rude/namecalling. The actions of these three people in particular are what I was calling a disgrace.

First rudeness:
This really just looks like a very transparent way to get people to make items for you so that you can lean on Valve a little harder to add your maps with this whole "community update" thing.

Second rudeness, this whole post is drenched in a super rude attitude:
I just happened to stumble across this... and I just need to get something straight here.

You are forming an update, advertising it on TF2M, while not allowing any more maps be submitted outside of being "extra content." And 2 of those 3 maps are yours? And this is to get Valve to buy them?

That seems so horrifyingly self-serving.

I say that having never played your maps, but I can't believe that this is something you'd actually admit.

Then you came back for more rudeness, including some namecalling:
This one in particular reeks of self-entitlement given that Valve hasn't said anything about your maps before and has previously said they aren't interested in MVM maps anyway.

Rude/namecalling:
but explicitly choosing to use that as your route to Valve buying your stuff looks incredibly arrogant.

This would have been better directed to a member of staff privately rather than in a thread where woozlez is reading. You know how rude it is to talk about someone as though they're not there in real life? applies on the internet too.
It's also weird that the project has a TF2maps.net subdomain but we're not involved at all, and actually are explicitly barred from entering? Traditionally those are just for contests or packs or whatever, but now someone has given a no-maps contest a private subdomain on our mapping website, and I can't figure out why? I don't ever even see Woozlez post or enter chat except to talk about his MVM maps, but he's been given a privilege that many in our own community don't get? At least Alias interacts with the community and provides help/feedback.
(Also have you ever asked for a page? Frozen's totally happy to help out with this stuff.....)

This is then really weird, suggesting you have larger problems with what's going on, when you're saying that you're already flabbergasted, but then immediately wishing well? This is just rude. If you have things to say, say them, don't say "oh well, I have major problems with you/your work, but hey good luck mate!"
Honestly, the advertising it on TF2Maps isn't my biggest gripe.

Anyway, I didn't want to personally make a big deal out of this. I was just flabbergasted at the time (still am really.)

I wish you luck, Woozlez.

Then more people start piling in:
I have to say that, because your interaction with TF2M has been 100% MvM promotion and nothing else, I'm finding it hard to care about this project personally.
Dick move, didn't need to be said. ever. Why would you ever say this to someone?

More things that don't need to be said to anyone, ever:
I don't know you like the regulars I interact with every day, and you always came across to me as a guy who expected attention and feedback from this community without ever giving anything in return.

Then this is just "Hey if you don't do things for us, why should we do things for you?" Which is just so weirdly rude.
in the future I would really like to see you step out of your MvM corner and become more involved with the mapping community as a whole. It's obvious you have real talent and knowledge of mapping that could benefit more than just yourself.

Then this shows that kilohurtz had no idea how his post came across, and reiterates a weird "the group is more important than you are, be part of the group or we don't want you here" sentiment. We want to encourage all mapping endeavours guys. TF2M hardly does any mvm stuff so it's hardly surprising that mvm mappers aren't more active!
I think you misunderstood me. I'm encouraging Woozlez and others to stop restricting themselves to MvM so that they can take part in the sharing of support and resources TF2Maps has to offer. It's unwise to limit yourself like that and alienate an entire community that could potentially be beneficial to you - not just in refining your mapping skills, but in willingness to support projects like this.

Calling out the guy as though he's harassing Valve, unnecessarily aggressive:
So you assume Valve doesn't know that and needs you to email them? Again? Again again?

Admitting yourself that you're being confrontational (this whole paragraph is super aggressive. One sentence would have done, instead of being a rude about it. Instead of all the rudeness you spouted, why didn't you just ask up front if their position on accepting maps was flexible. You'd probably have found Woozlez would have given the same answer of willingness to add quality maps despite not actively looking for maps.
So... did you tell those people? Did you say this in the rules somewhere? I don't see it. Why should people have to read this thread (not even the official one!) to learn about this weird exception to the rules? I worked on Ventus (though to be clear it's 95% Freyja's work) and no one told me. If this is an actual provision--if you want people to be doing this--why haven't you said so? Why did I have to get confrontational and beat it out of you?

It's actually getting tiring to quote everything rude and aggressive you said. But I'll press on because I want to make sure you've used that "you didn't read my posts" argument for the last time.

This whole next section is very aggressive, you're putting words in their mouths, there was never any suggestion that TF2M is anti-mvm. Then the way you bring up that you paid for a server as though that enables you to take some moral high ground in.... some argument that I'm clearly missing. At this point you're just bashing alias and woozlez.
Like Jethro says, that's because of how impractical and time consuming testing MVM is as opposed to our regular gamedays and impromptus. You might remember that years ago, during the MVM contest, I ran an official TF2M MVM server out of my own pocket to make the tests happen and hosted many of them myself. The gameday rules today forbid MVM not to exclude it, but as a formality, because how the fuck would one fit into a gameday? It requires a server restart! It takes a long time! We don't have people making MVM maps very often so there was no need to keep that service going anyway.

The idea that TF2M is somehow anti-MVM, a sentiment I see sort of in this post and also in Woozlez', is frankly stupid. When I made my whiny crybaby post, I never said MVM is bad or stupid or doesn't belong here. You'll note all my complaints about the contest revolve around execution and management on the part of Frozen and Woozlez. The game mode of the maps has nothing to do with it.
Actually most of your complaints were that Woozlez is arrogantly and entitledly self promoting and that you hate the reddit/facepunch rage machine.

Back into using the server you paid for as some holier than thou argument. I have no idea where this was going.
I helped Snowbat get Yucatan's event version into an optimized, compileable state (which probably helped the regular version too, frankly) and asked for nothing in return. If I was active with the MVM crowd it seems like that would grant me coauthor status. I paid for an MVM server for the better part of a year. I made the website and handled much of the MVM contest in Seba's absence. I won't hear it from you guys that now I or TF2M hates MVM or for some reason thinks it's secondary to PVP. This insinuation is pointless and wrong.
No one said those things, you're just aggressively defending nothing.

More holier than thou attitude:
You can make MVM maps on Potato's servers and still be involved in a productive way with TF2 mappers overall. Look at Matty or Egan, who started with surf and deathrun. Neither of them began with traditional maps and yet they are two of the most helpful users on this website and in the community. Look at the people making trade maps that still hang in chat to help out. I don't really even do much other than post solutions and run gamedays and leave feedback. It is possible to be useful no matter what angle you come in from.

Oh look here's all the horrid torrent of hate and namecalling that I mentioned. You've wholesale moved on from any concerns over the content of the contest and are now launching full scale personal attacks on woozlez. totally uncalled for.
But I think it's really gross that you claim your usage of the site has been "not entirely selfish" because you assume everyone "appreciated the chance to play the maps" like it's some kind of great honor. It reminds me of the quote in DOOM's signature, from grazr: "Frankly, it's like a godsend these maps get tested by us at all." THAT is the kind of toxic mentality we have on TF2M and you have of your own maps. Self importance. Egotism. Entitlement. Arrogance. That's what I am railing against. Not MVM.


Now you're aggressive at frozen, ignore his request to move discussion elsewhere and launch straight back into a torrent of namecalling and rude personal attack on woozlez and now you're out right stating that his maps aren't good. Which is not only untrue, but totally uncalled for. You're also making assumptions on the part of Valve, also ignoring just how many people were involved in the three maps in the project. one of which was made by someone else. It's coming across incredibly salty and like you're pissed that it's not an explicitly TF2maps project. TF2maps.net doesn't have a monopoly on the community, projects that don't involve us can still be community projects.
Frozen, are you serious right now? This is not a community project! This is Woozlez being a self-aggrandizing hypeman trying endlessly despite all opposition to get his stuff in game. I mean, good for him, but does this really look like a community effort? He made some maps, got some other MVM people to help with them, and got nowhere, so now he's trying to get people to make itemsso that his stuff can get in game.

There's no community project here. This is Woozlez being very transparent and admitting to creating this entire thing to help himself. Valve has said no explicitly and implicitly. I don't want to say "give up, it's not happening" but at a certain point you have to wonder: is it that Valve ignores your emails, or that the maps aren't good? Is a new delivery method (grouping items with the maps) the answer, or should you make take some time to look at the maps in a new light? Plenty of things get lots of ratings on the Workshop, especially when there's a small community behind them. That doesn't make them good.

Then this section of rude aggressive questions are so flawed:
If this was a community update the rules would be clearer about maps.
Would it? The fact that they have the 3 maps they want and aren't asking for more means it isn't a community event? Weird logic
If this was a community update it would have been started by more than just a couple mappers.
Why so? eotl started as two guys making a video, is that not a community update?
If this was a community update, I wouldn't be mad, because it wouldn't be Woozlez making another horn-tooting post about his amazing MVM maps that Valve mysteriously ignores time and time again. It would be people coming together to create something awesome. This isn't that.
I can't fathom why you're mad, but it's not because this isn't a community thing. you're just attacking the project for not being open to new maps. Because it's not open to maps, that gives you justification to launch into we-hate-woozlez day. No it doesn't.


You're reiterating everything before, all the same rudeness and personal attacks on both Frozen and Woozlez
But to give someone a subdomain for their self-promoting self-serving Facepunch contest, someone who only comes here essentially to spam links, someone who barred mappers (and by extension TF2M) from entering his contest until I kicked up shit in this thread, well, that strikes me as massively stupid. Because that's not a community update or community effort. That's just Woozlez Himself, unfortunately: someone who thinks that because he spent time building maps or a MVM community that he deserves a pat on the back and a few thousand bucks from Valve. That's not how it works, actually! And I don't think we should be engaged in contests that don't at least on some level represent us. It would make no sense for us, as a whole community, to get behind any of the other item-based community updates that happened to have a map attached, and yet here we are!

I agree with this bit, the way you're reacting to this is pitiful and disgusting, it makes me think that yes, the community IS full of children.
It's all about how these things are presented.
There's a lot of talk about things like MvA, how that was presented to TF2M, troubles during the contest, the results of that after the fact, and BANG! and Ronin's behavior with the update. What I'm saying is to look for those kinds of bad situations where a bit more planning, discussion, or cooperation can smooth things out and ensure that all the bases are covered. That goes for everyone, not just for TF2M. The way the community acts around updates and getting our content in game is a joke. It's pitiful and disgusting. It's times like these I remember most the community is actually children or older teens. They're conducting business on the Garry's Mod forums for Christ's sake.


---

So at the end of all that, yes, I had read all of your posts. You did start a torrent of hate and namecalling.
@Leminnes while you did no namecalling yourself, as annotated above, your posts were full of a horribly rude attitude.

As for your points being that this isn't a community update, you're right, this isn't yet backed by Valve in any way. but that doesn't make it woozlez's own ego-stroking grand move to blackmail valve into paying him money. It actually IS a community project. A whole bunch of people have already been heavily involved with the three maps. I can name four of the people involved without really knowing much about the maps, I'm 90% certain that more people were involved in the creation of just those three maps. (Woozlez, Earkham, Alias and Hydrogen).

Our image of integrity is HUGELY called into question when in response to someone posting about an upcoming project two prominent members launch into a torrent of hate and namecalling. You're doing far more damage to 'our image of integrity' than he is.

Finally, EVEN IF IT IS "just woozlez asking people to make shit for him so that he can make money too" as you say. The correct response would have been to ignore the thread and PM a member of staff with your concerns.
 
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tyler

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Thanks for annotating my posts for anyone else that didn't read them.

I don't feel you've invalidated a word of them though, nor do I feel you understand the concerns I was raising, but I know repeating myself doesn't work with you. Calling things rude doesn't make them false, and holding discussions in private doesn't solve problems.

The simple fact is I don't see 90% of what I wrote as rude, and I definitely don't see Leminnes' posts as rude. I wonder if the people thanking our posts think they are rude. I wonder if the people thanking our posts (but not posting themselves) would have PMed staff, like you suggest, if I had never posted. I doubt it.
 

fubarFX

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Leminnes just wanted to share his legitimate feelings about what was going on and it turned into a shit show because people are acting like insecure little plebs instead of adults. can't believe people are still calling each other out when there are far bigger issues at hand. none of this needed to be personal. but the issues the community is facing are very real and this is certainly not helping.
 

tyler

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@tyler in the past, people have messaged admins for this sort of thing, amongst various other things.
Yeah, but I was hoping raising that concern (that the contest is a transparent money grab) directly to Woozlez would invite him to counter that and explain how it isn't. Imagine my surprise.

It's not like he broke a rule and drawing attention to it would make it worse, or he necro'd some thread so posting to chide him would be counterproductive. I wanted to be proven wrong in my reading of his contest. Or I wanted him to say, "Hey, good point! Let's be more inclusive." Something like that, anyway.

Anyway, I'm happy it opened a discussion, even if no one (including me) is happy about being involved. I don't think PMing anyone would've been the right course here.
 

fubarFX

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I definitely agree with fubars last few posts. This type of attitude will go no where, if the community is becoming a bigger part of the content of TF2.

I'm still waiting for answers tho.

I'll be 100% honest and put out there that I feel like tf2m doesn't really fill what I want out of a community anymore and that I want to be proven wrong.
 
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