- Dec 29, 2012
- 43
- 152
(Screenshots completely out of date)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=479915352
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=479915352
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KotH Kilter
- Thread starter taxicat
- Start date
- Sep 5, 2009
- 912
- 684
Your resupply for red didn't work, it worked for blue though. It seemed to play alright, I never saw much fighting around the courtyards between spawn and mid, mid might be too chokepoint-y.
EDIT: OH you updated, sorry, well I still think it played alright. If it goes up into an imp again I'll come back with feedback.
EDIT: OH you updated, sorry, well I still think it played alright. If it goes up into an imp again I'll come back with feedback.
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Hey Taxicat, during the recent imp playtest I was mainly playing as a HWG and I noticed there weren't many surprise spots that I could try ambushing enemy players at. Specifically as you walk towards mid the rooms feel rather open and spacious, and even the mid point it's hard to sneak up on people.
I think it's the blue highlighted area that is the worry-spot at mid: it can see all entrances coming into mid, you can't surprise people there; it has height advantage all over mid; and it's very easy to just retreat down out of sight past the stairs anyway if need be.
Maybe simply try raising the middle point-walls higher so you could try blocking their sights on the opposite balcony things, and perhaps add walls to the entrances of the higher-up route to do more, maybe, but to a lesser extent.
I think just at the moment one of the main problems currently in the map is that the mid point doesn't offer varied gameplay enough for people to be excited to deathmatch on it. Either eliminating some sightlines, or maybe raising mid up further, or breaking down one of the flanks so it's super different from the other might help with that.
I think it's the blue highlighted area that is the worry-spot at mid: it can see all entrances coming into mid, you can't surprise people there; it has height advantage all over mid; and it's very easy to just retreat down out of sight past the stairs anyway if need be.
Maybe simply try raising the middle point-walls higher so you could try blocking their sights on the opposite balcony things, and perhaps add walls to the entrances of the higher-up route to do more, maybe, but to a lesser extent.
I think just at the moment one of the main problems currently in the map is that the mid point doesn't offer varied gameplay enough for people to be excited to deathmatch on it. Either eliminating some sightlines, or maybe raising mid up further, or breaking down one of the flanks so it's super different from the other might help with that.
I think you're consistently making this better, but I wanted to point out something I noticed about your map that I think is getting worse with each version, and that's the level and direction of height advantage. Frozen really disagreed with me on this, and while it's important to note we all have our own styles and ideas about level design, I felt that maybe he wasn't understanding what I was getting at and that this was worth posting.
Spawns are the lowest point on the map, and from there teams climb and climb, be it displacements or stairs. Height variation is cool and good, and it's great that you have it, but I think some areas it isn't really serving the player very well.
On other KOTH maps, spawns are only slightly lower or on the same level as the point, or the ground players can cover rises to point level well before players see the point for 2 or 3 of the paths. Take a look at Red's side of Viaduct:
Each place RED can come from offers advantages and disadvantages, and while they're going uphill the whole time, they often have access to high ground before they necessarily need it. Of the two routes that go directly to the point (middle, and side stairs), one of them is lower and sneakier, and the other elevates players so they can launch a more frontal attack.
All KOTH maps in the game do this, except maybe Harvest but that's a one-time only kind of map design. Lakeside does it by allowing teams to easily control the ramparts that look at mid, and King does it by giving both teams the platforms between the point and the stairs back down to spawn (though, those spawns also have elevated exits directly to bridges that start at point level). Even the Badlands adaptation for KOTH does it.
What this means is all KOTH maps in the game are basically a W shape, with the outer prongs being spawns and the inner prong being the point. Not all maps have to do this, of course, but it seems like you're trying to.
On Checkpoint, teams spawn at ground level and thus don't control the space in front of them. This is compounded by the fact that 2 of the rooms after spawn are raised up higher, and 2 of them also have big areas that enemies can hide in, with health often not too far away. For instance, why place two medkits here rather than redesign the area so enemies can't overtake it so easily? The medkit you added closer to spawn just makes spawn camping and enemies controlling your yard easier. The lack of windows on spawn doors makes this worse, as you can't see anything until you're outside.
In the one room where teams don't instantly lose height advantage out of spawn, the spytechy one, players are presented with an open hallway of spam. It's kinda long, and presents a lot of opportunity for enemies to get in here and bomb people coming from spawn from above. There's also this path if enemies weren't camping the center stairs, but enemies can see the door open before players can see what they are really walking into because of that metal barrier thing.
This vantage point is the one I see as most problematic, because it provides a way for attacking teams to push players back into their yard very easily. From here, you can dominate the enemy team's best pickups location and watch that long hallway I mentioned before. It's also super easy to duck out of this spot and into safety, either on the other side of the point (which is also now a great vantage) or into your team's side hallway with the small health/ammo.
Overall, the map isn't bad, but it's hard to call it really good, either. Most the time when I play this, I spend a lot of time attacking or being attacked in the yards between the point and spawn. I think this is because rather than being a loose W shape, your map is a loose /\ shape.
My recommendations are these:
Well, hope this is useful.
Spawns are the lowest point on the map, and from there teams climb and climb, be it displacements or stairs. Height variation is cool and good, and it's great that you have it, but I think some areas it isn't really serving the player very well.
On other KOTH maps, spawns are only slightly lower or on the same level as the point, or the ground players can cover rises to point level well before players see the point for 2 or 3 of the paths. Take a look at Red's side of Viaduct:
Each place RED can come from offers advantages and disadvantages, and while they're going uphill the whole time, they often have access to high ground before they necessarily need it. Of the two routes that go directly to the point (middle, and side stairs), one of them is lower and sneakier, and the other elevates players so they can launch a more frontal attack.
All KOTH maps in the game do this, except maybe Harvest but that's a one-time only kind of map design. Lakeside does it by allowing teams to easily control the ramparts that look at mid, and King does it by giving both teams the platforms between the point and the stairs back down to spawn (though, those spawns also have elevated exits directly to bridges that start at point level). Even the Badlands adaptation for KOTH does it.
What this means is all KOTH maps in the game are basically a W shape, with the outer prongs being spawns and the inner prong being the point. Not all maps have to do this, of course, but it seems like you're trying to.
On Checkpoint, teams spawn at ground level and thus don't control the space in front of them. This is compounded by the fact that 2 of the rooms after spawn are raised up higher, and 2 of them also have big areas that enemies can hide in, with health often not too far away. For instance, why place two medkits here rather than redesign the area so enemies can't overtake it so easily? The medkit you added closer to spawn just makes spawn camping and enemies controlling your yard easier. The lack of windows on spawn doors makes this worse, as you can't see anything until you're outside.
In the one room where teams don't instantly lose height advantage out of spawn, the spytechy one, players are presented with an open hallway of spam. It's kinda long, and presents a lot of opportunity for enemies to get in here and bomb people coming from spawn from above. There's also this path if enemies weren't camping the center stairs, but enemies can see the door open before players can see what they are really walking into because of that metal barrier thing.
This vantage point is the one I see as most problematic, because it provides a way for attacking teams to push players back into their yard very easily. From here, you can dominate the enemy team's best pickups location and watch that long hallway I mentioned before. It's also super easy to duck out of this spot and into safety, either on the other side of the point (which is also now a great vantage) or into your team's side hallway with the small health/ammo.
Overall, the map isn't bad, but it's hard to call it really good, either. Most the time when I play this, I spend a lot of time attacking or being attacked in the yards between the point and spawn. I think this is because rather than being a loose W shape, your map is a loose /\ shape.
My recommendations are these:
- Bring spawns up a bit, and maybe raise the surrounding geometry to make some of the initial height variation less extreme
- Trim the yard length a bit or make that long hallway room better
- Redo the height around mid so players aren't always approaching it on a ramp. Do what Viaduct does and create some areas where players can approach the point while already being on its level. This can tie into redoing the hallway room thing.
- Make it easier for players to flush the enemy team out of their yard somehow
Well, hope this is useful.
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