pl_hoodoo [Final release]

YM

LVL100 YM
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Dec 5, 2007
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Its just the particle part of the explosion that they haven't fixed yet. Tony Sergi said he'd done some code for it but then he also said ETA: unknown.

I'm gunna do some routing and see if I can talk to him personally/ send an email directly to him asking about it because I really will be needing it soon! :(
 

ryodoan

Resident Bum
Nov 2, 2007
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I just played through it for the last hour or so, and I have to say my opinion of the map has changed (slightly)

I still feel it is too engineer unfriendly, every single spot I wanted to build a sentry had a location that the sentry could be destroyed from out of range, or was to out in the open.

Originally, this was my main complaint and I felt that not being able to have a safe place to defend via sentry cover fire would make defense impossible.

However, since the spawn sites are so close to the bomb capture point, it ensures a game of face paced action as the attacking team tries to drop off the bomb before the defending team respawns.


My general thoughts are that in Vavle's escort map(s?) the defending team has many spots to set up secure sentry points to delay the attacking team, I think this is nice because if your team sucks, then at least you can help prolong the battle.

On Hoodoo the map depends on the fact that both sides will be relatively equally matched, if the one side is stronger (particularly the offense), they will steamroll the other side every time.

Final thought is that while the roll of engineers is diminished, the roll of medics is much greater and I had a ton of fun playing as a medic.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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Dec 5, 2007
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I still feel it is too engineer unfriendly

Since engineer is the class I understand least its not suprising I'm going to make maps that don't favour the engie since I've no idea what kind of things he likes and dislikes.
 

Vander

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Feb 16, 2008
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Just wanted to point out....as of this posting... tc_meridian's WIP has 9 more replies than this thread.

:p
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
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I actually disagree with both ryodoan and Youme's comments about engineers on hoodoo. I play a lot of engineer, even though it's primarily as an offensive engineer.

Stage 1:
The first half of stage 1 has limited locations for sentries, but once you get to the top of the hill there are plenty. This is fine since sentries right outside the gates are useless anyway (except to pop the enemy uber, in which case there's no need to protect it).

The second half of stage 2 has a LOT of sentry locations. There are a number of corners and just past the first checkpoint and the final room has good places all over the place and is very similar to Dustbowl 2-2 with locations. As with other maps, sentries are really only going to be useful if your team is helping to protect them.

Stage 2:
Once again, the first half of the map has limited sentry locations. The first building outside the spawn could use some additional spots, like a side room or two with some extra metal nearby. However, this isn't 100% necessary since the second half of the map is once again extremely sentry friendly. The main corridor through can have sentries up top that cover quite well. The last room is still the best spot, with the ledge on the left working well and the spot behind the rock on the right.

Stage 3:
This stage is excellent for sentries. The upper levels are easily reached by the defense and not the offense, making them excellent locations. There are multiple lower side rooms with metal in them (these could be made larger so engineers can avoid nades spammed in). The final area can have sentries on the upper ledge, side building, in front of the one-way gate, in the lower doorway, etc.

Granted, Dustbowl and Gold Rush do have a few more protected locations, but that's also one of the complaints about Gold Rush (3 good engineers can lock down stage 1 on their own).

So that's how I disagree with ryodoan. I disagree with youme because for a map to be good, and mapper can't ignore a class simply because it's not one they play. I've seen other mappers do this and screw over scouts, snipers, heavies, and spies. The result is that no matter how good the map is, it never plays right in pubs or competition. A good mapper (which I think you are, youme) will think about each class when designing each stage/area to help cater to that class in various ways. It makes the map far more fun and balanced in the end. :)
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
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Mar 4, 2008
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It's pretty hard to cater for 9 seperate classes and have them all happy, because pleasing one class inevitably means agitating another.

Each class will find a place where they are effective and if they can't it's probably their own fault for being unimaginative.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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So that's how I disagree with ryodoan. I disagree with youme because for a map to be good, and mapper can't ignore a class simply because it's not one they play. I've seen other mappers do this and screw over scouts, snipers, heavies, and spies. The result is that no matter how good the map is, it never plays right in pubs or competition. A good mapper (which I think you are, youme) will think about each class when designing each stage/area to help cater to that class in various ways. It makes the map far more fun and balanced in the end. :)

Its not that I don't think about sentry spots when making a map, I do, its just I don't understand how the engineer class plays so everything is based off where I'd expect to have to jump around a corner and destroy a sentry rather than where I'd like to set one up. This probably means I make lots of sentry spots, but each one has a place to destroy it from since that came first.
 

FLOOR_MASTER

L3: Member
Mar 10, 2008
118
140
After more 15v15 playtests these past few days, my initial b2 feedback seems to hold up, so please refer back to that. Additional comments:

Stage 1
This stage is fairly well-balanced. There are a few things I want to note:

hoodoo_b2_1.jpg

This path dead-ends and is a hassle for less mobile classes. Perhaps add a way out?

hoodoo_b2_2.jpg

RED could use a slight boost in defensive advantages in this area of the map. This could possibly be achieved by sealing off the BLU entrance to the pictured platform and relocating it to one of the two paths shown. (Also expand the rear of the platform a foot or two).

Stage 2
The area just before the 1st capture point is a bit spammy. Once BLU breaks through any initial defense right at the start of the Stage, they're virtually guaranteed to get into the 1st point building. The 2nd point offers RED few places to go once BLU reached the edge of the 1st point building closest to the RED spawn. The 2nd point sentry platform is very vulnerable right now and difficult to defend from. Some suggestions:

hoodoo_b2_3.jpg

Restore the height/orientation of the rock shown to the same way it looked in b1. Remove the one-way gate. By doing so, you can dilute the mass of RED in this area of the map and help spread out the fighting and reduce the spammyness of this area. I'm not sure how effective removing the grate will be, but I'm interested in seeing how it plays.

hoodoo_b2_4.jpg

Move the one-way gate to the indicated position. This allows RED to better defend from the sentry platform and dilutes RED further, while still allowing BLU an alternate route to the 2nd capture point area.

hoodoo_b2_5.jpg

Seal off this area with wood or a grate (preferred). RED demos have a very strong and overpowering advantage from their ability to control this area from a safe position above.

hoodoo_b2_6.jpg

Remove the indicated column to increase mobility and reduce spammyness in this area.

hoodoo_b2_7.jpg

Expand this area to make it a viable sentry platform and move the health/ammo backwards OR extend the platform forwards.

Stage 3
I haven't observed this enough yet. It definitely needs improvement, though.

A final comment - please don't rush this to RC status. As the person who strongly advocated steel and put Fishbus into contact with Valve, I'm looking for a new map to push. Steel went through 18 revisions and extensive playtesting over a 6-month period before being ready for prime time. I think that's an example worth following.
 
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Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
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May 19, 2008
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hoodooexploitie6.jpg

Probably not supposed to get up there, but it's probably not that useful of a spot anyway.
 

YM

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Like I said I don't know how engies get to half the places they do, whats the process to get up here (and yes it was intentionally left available for the crafty, but it seems most people use it..)
 

Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
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May 19, 2008
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I built a dispenser next to the little hoodoo, hopped on top of it, and from there onto the ledge, then up over the rail.

You can also get on top of the shed using the barrels by the spawn exit.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
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If there are ANY spots you don't want built, cover them with nobuilds, otherwise there's a good chance engineers will figure out how to build on them. There's a roof halfway through stage 2 (just before the checkpoint, above the health/metal) that I saw people building on as well. As someone that plays engineer a lot, I like being able to get on roofs and ledges since good sentry placement is all about surprise.
 

Snipergen

L13: Stunning Member
Nov 16, 2007
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I'd leave it, remember that weird spot on goldrush? I really like trying to get on that spot.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
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Mar 4, 2008
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