CP Snowplow Final Version

I think if there's a lesson to be learned here, it's that if you're going to make a custom map with the explicit goal of having it added to the game, don't make it something that cannot possibly be tested in its finished form. That's an advantage Steel and Standin had over this: their custom stuff was implemented entirely by the mapper.

I playtested with you a while ago and I remember telling you how the train “mechanic” added nothing to the gameplay of the map. It’s simply a complicated representation of a timer. The fact that it adds nothing from a gameplay perspective makes it entirely pointless. All you’re doing is confusing players for no reason. You disagreed with me at the time.

Now, it seems I have been vindicated by Valve’s decision not to include it, yet you now act as if you have no idea why. Maybe you shouldn’t surround yourself with ‘yes-men’. Maybe you should listen to the dissenting opinions next time…

Ehh, I think thats a bit harsh Bunhop. The timer does alter the dynamic slighty of the normal map timer of an A/D map. I thought the individual countdowns and the train health were meant to add more urgency to capturing the point. A long 5 minute timer until a device crushes the train would look a little nonsensical.

I was also at the testing that you attended, it was after the map got leaked and an Open beta was forced. If you watch the videos Crash has uploaded about the map's iterations, it was originally much more complex. The "Yes Men" you are talking about steered the map from a far more confusing layout and gamemode. The current version of snowplow could use some streamlining, however its UI elements were never the final product. They were just put together for the purposes of testing.

Perhaps a better solution to the current system whilst retaining the train-smashing would be to just have a timer and remove the train's health bar UI icon. That way a player could more intuitively connect that running out of time at a capture point means the train will asplode without having to decipher a new UI icon.

I also fiddled with this idea, what if the train were made more to resemble the game's freight trains, so as to remove itself from comparisons to Lil Chew Chew and the payload cart? Might help stop players from thinking they can push it like in pl.

I can't imagine an EOTL map without a train. It seems pretty necessary even if the train mechanics they tried never worked.

switch wavs to mp3

the wav files are taking up 94mb making this map a lot larger download than it needs to me convert them to mp3s please.

Wait, seriously? I don't even...

Edit: You are exaggerating, it is just 28 MB of uncompressed PCM.

They still should be converted to mp3's, I saved a lot of space on Wubwubwub by doing so.

No question there, encode it to save space.

And get rid of more edicts. >1600 is too much

Prestige said:

I can't imagine an EOTL map without a train. It seems pretty necessary even if the train mechanics they tried never worked.

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Conceptually, it's pretty simple to eliminate the custom HUD and leave the train in as visual sugar. Switch to a standard A/D format and it'd basically function as a "finale event" every time the attackers capture a point.

Having never seen the vmf I have no way of knowing if the entity work would be easy, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Just wanted to pop my head in here and say I think you guys did a great job of pushing the envelope. I also think it's really sad that Valve didn't try and encourage and enable that. Pretty disappointed in the big V for not releasing this. Oh well, keep on fighting the good fight Fr0Z3n (and YM).

Fr0Z3n said:

We're really doing our best.

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Could be better.
The train-traps and blockades are prop_dynamic and have multiple bones AND have a colision model. You know what that means?
Besides increased data the server has to send because of the animated colision model, this props add quite a lot of entities.
A prop dynamic with a colision model adds this much edicts: 1+1*bones
So a prop with 10 bones and colision model adds 11 edicts to the map.
However if the prop has no clision model (colision disabled dosn't count) then it only counts as 1 edict.

So I recommend to delete the colision model of this props and build the colision with invisible brushes. Or make a part of this props prop_static.
entity_report said there were over 180 prop_dynamic edicts! Means can you reduce the entity count by around 150 entities without changing any gameplay mechanic!

And look at all the sprites. there are lamps with 2 sprites and at other places are the same lamps with 4 sprites.
Did you really care about the entity count?

I've been running this on one of my gameservers since the launch (rc2 to rc3 now) and it doesn't crash with 24 players. I'm quite sure it would cause crashes with a bit more players though.

I want to relay the feedback that players have said to me. Framerate needs to be improved and the map is a bit too complex in some areas. Simplifying it could be of a use. There's also some dead ends that keep players from navigating properly, as well as the spawns door heading sideways and not to the way where they suppose to go. Easily gets off to wrong direction, despite the big red arrow in front of them.

But yeah, i kind of start to see why Valve didn't accept this in. It has it's flaws and i'm pretty sure this would have worked as a regular payload better with a custom train (cart) on it. Size is quite large too, which is sort of an issue too. Personally i never liked frontier myself due to it's too simple pathway style but it's big and this looked way better than that in all areas.

You should make a version of the map that eliminates the custom gamemode entirely, and instead has the standard CP timer system. I'm not sure in what ways it would change the map, but I'd recommend making it just see what would happen. It'd also help with your edict issues.

Idolon said:

You should make a version of the map that eliminates the custom gamemode entirely, and instead has the standard CP timer system. I'm not sure in what ways it would change the map, but I'd recommend making it just see what would happen. It'd also help with your edict issues.

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The edict issue could be easily solved with my method, but they don't seem to respond to it.
Pity.

Idolon said:

You should make a version of the map that eliminates the custom gamemode entirely, and instead has the standard CP timer system. I'm not sure in what ways it would change the map, but I'd recommend making it just see what would happen. It'd also help with your edict issues.

Click to expand...

I imagine that the confusion that was allegedly reported by new players is simply the custom mode. To us it seems like second nature. And I'd defend having a separate custom mode if it were distinct like the earlier iterations. Right now it's best described as Attack/Defense with an impromptu timer, and the impromptu timer is what is the source of confusion. If something is to function the same way, it'd make much more sense for it to be presented in the same way as well.

Another issue I had with the custom mode is that the train health carries over between stages. This seems not like much of an issue but it sets a precedent. If a team can barely win stage 1 by pulling a last-minute push out of their collective asses, odds are they won't clear stage 2. The train will be a wreck before the setup gates even open on the second area. They'll then have to quickly bust through a defense that had time to setup or they'll just flat-out lose in a very short amount of time.

One last nitpick I had with the mode is that it didn't really feel like we were trying to stop this runaway train. Stop-and-go doesn't really make it have that sense of urgency like it did in the short.

These grievances noted, I'd like to voice a proposed change:

1. Strip the map down so it's a standard A/D map.
2. In keeping the train theme of the map, the traps are instead replaced with large barricades/explosives/whatever. BLU's new goal is to clear the barricades off the track instead of walking the train down its path and freeing it from danger like a lemming.
3. When time runs out (and overtime ends), the train comes zipping down the track killing anyone in the way, crashes into the first barricade in its way and explodes.
4. If BLU clears all of the barricades, the train does the same thing but keeps going since there's nothing in its way. Zipping into the tunnel leading down the mountain in stage 1 or crashing into RED's explosive stockpile in stage 2.

Lampenpam said:

The edict issue could be easily solved with my method, but they don't seem to respond to it.
Pity.

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Jesus christ what are you expecting? An update ever hour? They're probably doing that already. The map makers are real people too, something a few of you in this thread seem to be forgetting. Seriously...

Yeah, we need a bit of patience here. Big steps have already been made to fix these issues within the constraints of the release candidate and Frozen is pursuing avenues for fixing things further, but he likely doesn't have the time to trawl the thread for feedback and post about it in *correction* "1 day" timeframe

In the meantime, the map is playable and getting more playable every update. To put things into perspective, there have been 2 major fix iterations of snowplow in a single week, that is more than you see most alphas and betas here get updated.

While we would all hope that our individual ideas would somehow push Valve to add snowplow, there really isn't anything to do for that. As pessimistic as it sounds, I doubt Valve would go back against its vague reason for not adding the map. Having an EOTL themed map added a week or more after the actual EOTL update would intrude on Smissmass.

Edit: Got post times wrong

Psychopath said:

These grievances noted, I'd like to voice a proposed change:

1. Strip the map down so it's a standard A/D map.
2. In keeping the train theme of the map, the traps are instead replaced with large barricades/explosives/whatever. BLU's new goal is to clear the barricades off the track instead of walking the train down its path and freeing it from danger like a lemming.
3. When time runs out (and overtime ends), the train comes zipping down the track killing anyone in the way, crashes into the first barricade in its way and explodes.
4. If BLU clears all of the barricades, the train does the same thing but keeps going since there's nothing in its way. Zipping into the tunnel leading down the mountain in stage 1 or crashing into RED's explosive stockpile in stage 2.

Click to expand...

This reminds me of an idea i had for a payload map before EOTL was announced.

RED has built tracks to divert a train directly into BLU's base in an attempt to destroy it. BLU decides to send a bomb down this path in the opposite direction.

Basically, the bomb's on a timer and when it's all the way down it explodes. BLU has to push the bomb until it's at the point where its explosion coincides with the arrival of the train, derailing it (the final point).