For showcase maps: Being reviewed

ibex

aa
Sep 1, 2013
308
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This is the sort of thing that I've always wondered about with Valve. They're very proud of their data-driven strategies, and yet when it comes to TF2 they seem to put their foot in their mouth more often than you would expect for a rigorous company policy. That leaves three possibilities: either the people making TF2 don't know what they are doing, which seems unlikely, they don't actually do much testing, which would be surprising, or the game that the TF2 team wants to play isn't the same one as the game the general population are. Think of this as the difference between 6v6 and pub play. The reason so many items are banned from 6v6 leagues is that Valve makes design decisions for pub-play and not 6v6, which means default 6v6 is poorly balanced and from the view of the 6v6 player, many new additions to the game are "terrible". That would explain why some of the Valve hypocrisy: the games their playtesting groups take part in reveal Kong King and rd_asteroid as the funnest maps ever made, while popular community maps like, say, Glacier are ditched because their group just does things differently.

Went to look a glacier to see if I remembered it correctly...and:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=21369
Reading old threads is good.
A lot of people have voiced good opinions about what to do, but like fubar and others have stated: Make what you want, make something that plays how you want, and in the off chance that other people like it, it will gain popularity. Going even further, chances are remote, but maybe valve will validate your efforts and the map's popularity by putting it in game (not saying popularity guarantees acceptance though).

And more specifically about glacier:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showpost.php?p=153838&postcount=298 shows up on the second page of that first thread
 

RubbishyUser

L7: Fancy Member
Feb 17, 2013
414
488
Scorpio's post on the acquiring of Standin and Process by Valve, for reference.


Okay, seeing as how there were some questions/comments/critiques in this thread, figured I would make a response. Have to say, starting out, I'm kind of disappointed with some of the comments on display (you can probably figure out which ones), but w/e, water under the bridge, etc etc.

First off, thanks to everybody. Congrats are super appreciated. Its incredibly gratifying to have my years and years of crafting maps recognized, and obviously its great to have people excited for me (I know I am). Mapping in obscurity is obviously no fun, so yah, good times.

Here comes the big one. Obviously, not everyone is going to be super excited about my maps being chosen. People are going to have their own personal favorites, and feel somewhat betrayed when they don't get picked. And, they might even have grounds and criteria by which they judge my maps and find them lacking.

Whatever. It isn't up to you. You aren't Valve, you don't choose the maps they purchase, and your feedback on what does or doesn't work accounts for very little. That, to me, seems like one of the fundamental problems with this community as a whole. While I definitely appreciate the work of the administrative crew (Ravidge and DRP in particular) at the end of the day TF2Maps.net is NOT the culmination of TF2 mapping, no matter how much some members might like to imagine that it is. It is, generally speaking, a very small group of regulars who dedicate quite a bit of time to pointless bickering and self-congratulation.

The number of times I've seen people on here critique maps that actually have user bases, that have significant and dedicated followings, is just outrageous. Lakeside gets purchased, people trash it for months, despite the fact that it has a very, very solid art style, a simple and immediately accessible goal and layout, and sees play in Highlander (which is growing all the time).

Personally, while I've derived a great deal from some of the (older) tutorials, in the recent past I feel as though my maps have gained very little from TF2Maps.net. You'll note, that most of my map threads haven't been significantly updated by me in years, that I prefer to spend what time I have monitoring the reception of them in other venues.

The community is very useful for figuring out early mapping techniques, but beyond that most of the mappers I respect have derived much of their mapping techniques from following their own path, and finding groups of like minded individuals to support them. 3dnj doesn't wait around for your support or feedback, he goes out and makes amazingly beautiful TF2 and CS:GO maps on his own. Fishbus didn't solicit feedback here on steel, instead he makes an amazing map and then goes and gets a job with splash damage.

If you feel that Lakeside, Koth_king or w/e other map isn't quite up to your VAST AND AMAZING STANDARDS, then you may be deluding yourself about what quality is.

As far as Valve providing you with direct and immediate feedback on what they want to purchase: look, that's not how mapping works. You don't know what you want to purchase until it exists and is playable. If Valve knew what they were looking to purchase from mappers, then we wouldn't really be surprised or excited by anything that a mapper made. It would just be like "Yup, thats a map that fits our criteria, guess I'll buy that". Don't expect some formula handed down from above, game companies expect level designers to be able to come up with workable, playable, amazing level designs on their own. You aren't coloring in the lines, you are drawing from scratch and trying to wow people with your own take on design.

If you want a map to be made official there is only two methods to increase the likelihood of that happening. 1) Make the best maps possible, 2) Learn from your mistakes. What exactly "the best map" is is not known or knowable until you make it, and if you are so stuck in your ways, moaning over your hours and hours of mapping leading to nothing, or demanding that your personal favorite map get included (despite the fact that its been in a complete state for many years with very little critical reception), you'll be stuck in the same spot forever. Make maps, figure out if they are a success or failure, and then move on to the next project. Anyone can do this, you don't need Valve holding your hand to know whether or not something is successful.

Obviously, this post is a bit grumpy, and probably overly negative about TF2Maps role in mapping, but I do think its important to take mapping as both a collaborative work AND a solitary one. Yes, you need feedback, playtests and outside eyes to evaluate your maps. But at the same time you need to accept that much of what makes a map good is up to you, and making a product that Valve (or any game company, really) wants to purchase or hire based off of is ultimately down to you create. Accepting certain community members word as gospel, and creating an incredibly cliquish circle that constantly criticizes other peoples mapping decisions is not, IMO, a particularly useful path towards being a viable level designer.

P.S. For those wondering, here is a summary of the emails between me and Valve. None of this is word for word, just a quick boiling down of how the map went from my hard drive to Valve.

V: Yo, we would like to acquire process and standin.
Me: Cool! Here is a list of everyone involved!
V: Is this your current address?
Me: Yes.
V: Okay, here is a contract, please sign and scan back a copy to me. Also, we will need any vmf's and textures associated with the map.
Me: Hey, do you have a timeline? I would like to make some changes to the maps before they are put in the game. Would that be okay?
V: We have already playtested the maps as they are currently publicly available, if the changes are too extreme we might have to retest, and we may not want to purchase them.
Me: Okay, I'm only planning slight visual changes. (send the updated versions on sunday)
V: Hey can you fill out this form so we can wire you the money?
Me: YES!!! I CAN DO THAT!!

As you can see, no changes were recomended, demanded or solicited. In fact, the possibility of changes kind of turned them off a bit.
 

HQDefault

...what
aa
Aug 6, 2014
1,056
535
dis

erry piece of info valve gives moves mapping further from 'i wanna make cool shit' and closer to 'gimme dat valve money'

mapping is better off with them not saying anything at all

If you're making a map for valve money, then good fucking luck to you. Those maps have no creativity, no heart, and no effort. Heck, I remember it used to be you got NO MONEY for making a map that got put into the game, if I'm correct, and even if, players give the money to the mapmaker, not just valve themselves. So, that's kind of a gamble. Can you name ONE map that is just being made so they can get valve's money?

In my early attempts at mapping, that's what I kinda thought I was doing. But once I really transitioned, especially while working on Hangar, I realized that these maps took soul. Now, I'm in it so people can see my effort. I want people to understand I have capabilities. (Also, I don't think I have a way of getting the money anyway, what with me being 14 and having no checking account :blush: )
Basically, I do it for people to enjoy. Which is hopefully the goal of every map maker :)

BTW: The reason I posted this thread was because I was looking at some maps, and I thought: "That's a good map. I wonder if valve will add it..."
 
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worMatty

Repacking Evangelist
aa
Jul 22, 2014
1,258
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If you're making a map for valve money, then good fucking luck to you. Those maps have no creativity, no heart, and no effort.
Which maps are these, exactly?
 

HQDefault

...what
aa
Aug 6, 2014
1,056
535
Which maps are these, exactly?

Exactly C:<

It's usually a few, A FEW, of the people that post a single a1 that doesn't even work and then never comes back. If they do this, it means they're not willing to put in the effort, or think that it's not worth the time in the long run. Not to say everyone who quickly gives up is like this, but I'm just saying.
 

ok comp

L2: Junior Member
Mar 16, 2011
51
15
I doubt there are many people who are mapping primarily for the money. The reward is not worth the risk. It takes an immense amount of time to create a map, and there's no guarantee that your map gets picked up and you get paid. It's a huge loss of invested time.

I actually don't know how long it takes to make a hat, cosmetic or weapon, but my assumption is that you invest far less time on each individual one... if your item doesn't get picked up, no huge loss. Suppose the amount of time you'd spend making a map is used to create several different cosmetics and maybe one or two get picked up; your risk is spread out over several different creations and your chances of walking away with some money are increased. You stand to make safer money this way (and considering the way things are structured now, probably a lot more in the long run).

That's not to say I think it's wrong to use the potential for financial compensation as motivation to complete a project though. I think it's fine since we don't really know what exactly Valve wants; all it really does is make us try harder with projects we're genuinely passionate about. It'd be a different story if Valve said "we'd like a snow themed CTF map." Guess what kind of maps you'd be playtesting for the next few months!