Public Discussion: Medieval Mode and Contests

A balanced map is a balanced map, why does it matter where the balance falls? Does an A/D map lose or gain points because engineers are much stronger on them than other map types (both for the focused defense, and rapid forward teleporting)? If the map is fair within the confines of medieval mode, then it is a balanced map even if the balance is different from others.

If medieval should need special server settings... same thing could be done as was brought up in the crit thread and have such needs automated.

Should we ban arena maps from contests too because they aren't popular? What about CTF that everyone hates?

I don't personally see any harm in using medieval mode. The thing is, medieval isn't really different from normal tf2 at all, save for the weapons you can use - but since when have people's loadouts been relevant to how a map is judged?

I don't think judging a medieval map should be different from judging, say, a koth map. Koth maps are judged on how well they fulfill their role as a koth map, just as medieval maps should be judged on how well they fulfill their role as a medieval map.

And when it comes to player count, I'd say don't worry at all. You get unpopular maps in every mapping contest. There's always that map that makes you groan internally, "oh god do we really have to test this again?".

The only reason I might think we shouldn't allow medieval is if setting up the server really is a huge pain. I wouldn't know about that mysel, so I can't comment.

Let it be.
The gamemode itself would dock points off of any gameplay scores do to how limited combat is. But if someone comes up with a map that excels and revitalizes medieval, earning them higher gameplay scores, then why not let them enter a contest/get publicity.

if someone insists on shooting themselves in the foot with a glorified melee mode let them

I feel personally that Medieval Mode is always something I can go back to if I'm frustrated or tired of normal gameplay. Sort like how.2fort is for me. It may not be the greatest laid out map in terms of meta or class balance, but I can have fun on it. And that's all that really matters to me. As for judging in contests, I have to agree with what umb said. People should know that the map is still a map, and should be feedbacked like a normal map, no "ugh medieval" comments.

I'm gonna answer the questions in reverse order because I'm cool like that.

The player count for medieval maps shouldn't be so bad that it's impossible to test the map. My own medieval map got its fair share of testing when I was working on it. That multistage CP medieval map that someone was working on recently got at least a few fully manned tests on our servers. A lot of people who join our tests compromise personal tastes in maps for the benefit of testing, be it crits, a certain gamemode, or just a bad map, we suffer through them. I don't see why medieval would be any different.

There are exactly two server configurations that need to be considered when testing medieval maps: the text chat filter (tf_medieval_autorp 0/1) and random crits (tf_weapon_criticals 0/1). The medieval chat filter is a little amusing, sometimes, if it's your first time playing medieval mode, but after the novelty inevitably wears off you find yourself wanting to actually understand what the chat is saying. You can bypass the filter by putting an exclamation mark at the start of your message, meaning plugin feedback is unaffected, but this is a little-known and awkward way to go about it - I recommend we turn it off. As for random crits, medieval mode's heavy reliance on melee weapons means crits happen a hell of a lot more often than normal TF2, so they have much more opportunity to affect the outcome of tests. Like we do with Arena maps, I recommend we turn crits off for any medieval map.

As for judging a medieval map, it's different from normal TF2, I'll give you that. While what others have been saying apply somewhat, in that medieval has its own set of judgement criteria the same way every gamemode does, the problem is that medieval's judging criteria is not clearly defined. Medieval maps are few in number, played even less, and traditional wisdom doesn't carry over as well it does with other gamemodes. BUT. I feel that disallowing it from contests is only exacerbating that problem. Medieval is shit, and is always going to be shit until we figure it out the way we have done for other gamemodes. The stigma against it in this community and the TF2 community at large is a big enough hurdle to get over without it being disallowed in every contest.

Speaking from personal experience, I've had a couple ideas for medieval maps kicking around, but contests are what initially motivate me to start mapping. The fact that any medieval map I want to enter into a contest is relegated to the 72hr, where the elusive quality needed to revitalise the gamemode is generally quite limited just defeats the point.

If judging criteria for medieval maps is a concern, then we should be encouraging people to make more medieval maps, so that we can learn more about the gamemode. Disallowing medieval maps from contests is directly counter-productive in that sense.

I'm sleepy so i'll rush my opinion:

It's a shit ton easier to get a 10/10 on balance compared to any other gamemode, some might argue that "hurr compare koth to a/d" which doesn't work as in that gamemode you have to balance multiple classes actually doing different things.

I agree with the above.

On the other hand, Fantasmos, I feel exactly the same way about arena. arena remains the only gamemode that is traditionally symmetrical that I've seen work asymmetrically (Yunshu). I think that's because for some reason, it's significantly less taxing to balance for arena than other maps (I may be wrong on this - I haven't made an arena map). If that is the case, then the only solution I can see is if maps were judged in a kinda percentage-of-their-class thing: arena maps had to be compared with other good arena maps and payload with payload. This may be unworkable.

Frozen, can we have a public discussion on judging? It's occurred to me we've never really talked about how it should be done, or if the current aesthetic/technical/balance system is the best in the first place.

RubbishyUser said:

I agree with the above.

On the other hand, Fantasmos, I feel exactly the same way about arena. arena remains the only gamemode that is traditionally symmetrical that I've seen work asymmetrically (Yunshu). I think that's because for some reason, it's significantly less taxing to balance for arena than other maps (I may be wrong on this - I haven't made an arena map). If that is the case, then the only solution I can see is if maps were judged in a kinda percentage-of-their-class thing: arena maps had to be compared with other good arena maps and payload with payload. This may be unworkable.

Frozen, can we have a public discussion on judging? It's occurred to me we've never really talked about how it should be done, or if the current aesthetic/technical/balance system is the best in the first place.

Click to expand...

Arena maps aren't balanced almost instantly, arena maps are fun almost instantly.

I don't think it's the job of the contest organizer to try and ensure submissions will actually have a shot at winning, which is what seems to be the case with forbidding medieval mode entries. If someone is dead set making a medieval map despite everyone being fully aware it will never win, they should be allowed to submit it and treat the failure as a life lesson.

Who knows, the next great map may come out of it. You can't know without trying.

If it places a significant burden on server admins that's another issue, but I still think they should be allowed to submit it.. if it never gets play tested, well, they knew the risks.

I am of the opinion that medieval mode isn't a game mode at all. It is a game mode modifier.

As for how to deal with such maps, I see no need for any special procedure. Disabling the chat filter is a good idea, but not an important detail. The modifier being more reliant on crits is a valid point, but one best left for debate in the main crits topic.