I'm not going to read any of the discussion. Nor will I read anything after this post, as I dislike this kind of discussion. But random crits are a part of the game. That's just how it is. Test with random crits. They are not gamebreaking.
Public Discussion: Testing and Random Crits
- Thread starter Fruity Snacks
- Start date
They are an obsolete part of the game that adds nothing important to testing sessions. That leaves only the question whether they make testing more fun and inviting - something i don't think they do at all.
Now that we're having this discussion, could we possibly consider turning off damage spread as well? In a lot of cases, i find that damage spread is actually a lot worse than random crits. The later does at least have visual indicators.
wareya
L420: High Member
- Jun 17, 2012
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damage spread actually changes consistent things, though. you have a 50% chance of bodyshot-killing a medic instead of a 100% chance. that's not to say that turning it off would be harmful at all, but it's markably more different than what 90% of the maps over here are made for. it'll make snipers slightly better with the rifles, worse with the arrows, increase the effectiveness of the direct hit, etc etc
the randomness is highly distributed already, to the point where after like 10 shots, statistics and prng-suckiness make its effect not matter outside of "plays" like "the medic took 149 damage! he pops! he wins the round! the sniper cries in a corner and kills himself" stop mattering. also, it slightly changes the falloff (softens the middle-high and middle-low, but not the high, middle, or low) for high-firerate weapons.
now, on shotgun spread, I WOULD say it should be universally disabled, but the problem is that it makes shotguns like 2x at powerful at long range because they stack the center pellet (3x for the FaN) and 1.3x as powerful at mid range due to the actual shape of the pattern (seriously, it doesn't match the random spread at all). valve is never going to fix these problems.
the randomness is highly distributed already, to the point where after like 10 shots, statistics and prng-suckiness make its effect not matter outside of "plays" like "the medic took 149 damage! he pops! he wins the round! the sniper cries in a corner and kills himself" stop mattering. also, it slightly changes the falloff (softens the middle-high and middle-low, but not the high, middle, or low) for high-firerate weapons.
now, on shotgun spread, I WOULD say it should be universally disabled, but the problem is that it makes shotguns like 2x at powerful at long range because they stack the center pellet (3x for the FaN) and 1.3x as powerful at mid range due to the actual shape of the pattern (seriously, it doesn't match the random spread at all). valve is never going to fix these problems.
Could we decide this with a forum poll? I feel like we're not stating anything new here.
- Jul 22, 2009
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I just don't get this.
"woopsie, haha. Looks like chance decided that my grenade should do 90 damage instead of 100. Too bad it killed me that i couldn't load another grenade in time. Oh how i love inconsistency."
Polls are an excuse to not have a discussion.
wareya
L420: High Member
- Jun 17, 2012
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I disagree entirely. Making decisions directly isn't even a primary function of forum polls.
Sel
Banned
- Feb 18, 2009
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This thread is pathetic. There is no argument on whether crits should be on or off in a testing environment. Anyone capable of basic reasoning can put together that if your goal is to create an incredible, well balanced map you'd have to be phenomenally stupid to introduce a diceroll that massively effects the outcome of a tf2 match. It really is that simple.
The issue isn't about crits or no crits, it's about what this community wants to be, a custom maps pub, or an actual testing server, and quite frankly, for nearly the entire lifetime of this community it has only wanted to be a pub with a bunch of bad to mediocre mappers who don't really give a shit about actually trying to make the best damn map they can so they can improve their skills and ultimately make an even better map next time.
There have obviously been a few mappers who were exceptions to that rule, but it should come as a shock to no one that even while they were active here they went elsewhere to get real feedback and testing.
If you wanna be a custom maps pub then that's fine, but don't pretend that what you're offering is particularly great for making sure a map plays well and make sure people know that they'll need to go elsewhere (probably some comp league/testing group) if they want to actually make improvements to map balance and gameplay that go beyond basic obvious mistakes. Not doing so is accomplishing nothing beyond sabotaging new mappers and their ability to improve, and if you willfully sabotage people like that then you're a fucking contemptible cancer.
-Given an Infraction for Flaming, the discussion is here to exchange ideas on the topic, if you don't want to be part of that or don't think there is point in talking about it then simply don't post. Harribo
The issue isn't about crits or no crits, it's about what this community wants to be, a custom maps pub, or an actual testing server, and quite frankly, for nearly the entire lifetime of this community it has only wanted to be a pub with a bunch of bad to mediocre mappers who don't really give a shit about actually trying to make the best damn map they can so they can improve their skills and ultimately make an even better map next time.
There have obviously been a few mappers who were exceptions to that rule, but it should come as a shock to no one that even while they were active here they went elsewhere to get real feedback and testing.
If you wanna be a custom maps pub then that's fine, but don't pretend that what you're offering is particularly great for making sure a map plays well and make sure people know that they'll need to go elsewhere (probably some comp league/testing group) if they want to actually make improvements to map balance and gameplay that go beyond basic obvious mistakes. Not doing so is accomplishing nothing beyond sabotaging new mappers and their ability to improve, and if you willfully sabotage people like that then you're a fucking contemptible cancer.
-Given an Infraction for Flaming, the discussion is here to exchange ideas on the topic, if you don't want to be part of that or don't think there is point in talking about it then simply don't post. Harribo
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Gonna disagree with this about 50%. There's a number of mappers here who care very dearly about their craft, and there's a fair few of us who also try to provide the best feedback that they can. You've got a point though, just maybe the issues aren't as severe as you've made them out to be?
Sel
Banned
- Feb 18, 2009
- 1,239
- 2,570
I've been here a long time, and the community really hasn't changed that much. Here and there some people actually learn and start making great maps, but those people make up a tiny fraction of the community. According to the member count of this site, 18000~ people have been through here at some point or another, and even ignoring that, and just looking at our 500~ active members, I'd be hard pressed to need to do more than count on my fingers (and MAYBE one set of toes) the amount of people here I'd consider decent, or putting forth the effort to get better that I've seen around over the last year.
inb4 another ridiculous infraction for contributing seriously to what should be an important discussion
Doesn't matter because it's completely irrelevant, but regardless of what they do, it's just as silly to use what valve does as the gold standard for what everyone else should do as it is to use "most pubs" for literally the exact same reason.
wareya
L420: High Member
- Jun 17, 2012
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how is that an infraction for flaming, I don't understand
I mean 'contemptible cancer' is pretty harsh but it's not directed to anyone specific and it's not like the actual legitimate flamewars that I've gone through
I mean I get that it's Sel and all but that's not worse than things that have already been posted here
I mean 'contemptible cancer' is pretty harsh but it's not directed to anyone specific and it's not like the actual legitimate flamewars that I've gone through
I mean I get that it's Sel and all but that's not worse than things that have already been posted here
Part One:
Part Two: The Sequel to Part One:
I think that crits should be disabled. I could go into a bunch of complicated reasons for this, but I would rather leave it at this: If we keep crits, Idolon will leave TF2M tests forever, and I want him back. Other than that, all I know is this: I exist, and so do crits.
Conclusion:
By saying our opinions and choices define us as a community, you make a valid point, but it’s also a self-explanatory one. The reason your post was seen as flaming, and not taken seriously, can be traced to the first sentence: “This thread is pathetic.” This sets the tone for your entire post, and since it is unlikely TF2M will ever change radically, (and it never has in the past,) your argument comes off as an attack. I can take you seriously though, and I understand where you’re coming from. The issue with it is that TF2M isn’t a community with a single goal. Instead, we are a rainbow of different colors or something, and I think it is unfair to criticize someone for being red and not blue or whatever. It’s all about opinions, and those make us who we are. (Sheep.)Sel said:
Part Two: The Sequel to Part One:
I think that crits should be disabled. I could go into a bunch of complicated reasons for this, but I would rather leave it at this: If we keep crits, Idolon will leave TF2M tests forever, and I want him back. Other than that, all I know is this: I exist, and so do crits.
Conclusion:
Just because it isn't as bad as other stuff, doesn't make it good. It's possible to get across strong views and still remain civil. But not like this:
As for the infractions linked from the steam convos thread...???
It got an infraction because this is not the thread for discussing what tf2m is supposed to be; if the post only consisted of the first paragraph I don't think it'd've gotten an infraction .
Personally I don't like crits, they make me mad more often than happy. Almost every time I get killed by a random crit I get mad, but getting a crit kill isn't really satisfying - rather than me out-DPSing my opponent it's the based rng god deciding I get to win. And while a crit or two may not change the outcome of a single round, they can sure as hell anger some people into leaving the server, and the number of people definitely has an impact on how a test goes.
Imo our testing (and server in general) default should be crits off, but available by request from the map's author.