RD asteroid
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evanonline
L420: High Member
- Mar 15, 2009
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The stealing mechanic was fine when points were earned as quickly and frequently as they had been in the previous version of the map.
Now when points get stolen I get upset not because "oh no, the enemies took our points" but "oh no, we're going to be here way fucking longer"
If the map were to stay the way it is right now, layout-wise--and I hope it doesn't--it would need to have a much lower score you have to achieve to win, and/or remove the stealing mechanic.
The map was too big before, but now it's too tight, it's just not fun anymore. I think mid needs to be sized up, re-add the caves, maybe extend the entrance to the bases juuuuust a little (not to the same size it had been before, but give it some breathing room) and add more health/metal. I'd tweak the vents because the crouching doesn't really help anything, just make it wind around a little like Prestige suggested.
I'd toy with the idea of adding a second spawn that's closer to the battlements like 2fort has. It might suck, but it might help a lot.
Now when points get stolen I get upset not because "oh no, the enemies took our points" but "oh no, we're going to be here way fucking longer"
If the map were to stay the way it is right now, layout-wise--and I hope it doesn't--it would need to have a much lower score you have to achieve to win, and/or remove the stealing mechanic.
The map was too big before, but now it's too tight, it's just not fun anymore. I think mid needs to be sized up, re-add the caves, maybe extend the entrance to the bases juuuuust a little (not to the same size it had been before, but give it some breathing room) and add more health/metal. I'd tweak the vents because the crouching doesn't really help anything, just make it wind around a little like Prestige suggested.
I'd toy with the idea of adding a second spawn that's closer to the battlements like 2fort has. It might suck, but it might help a lot.
Toomai
L3: Member
- Apr 14, 2011
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Once an alt route of some sort is added back to mid (and so the point collection happens faster again), it might be a good idea to do one or both of the following:
- Impose a cap on how many points can be stolen at once, maybe something like 75 per core. This would reduce swing both ways.
- The more behind a team is, the faster they can load points to steal. The inverse would also be true; teams that are far ahead won't be able to steal points as fast. This would encourage stealing when behind, make it harder to steal when ahead, and in general result in closer games.
Uhhh... can you teleport with the stolen core?
Just now, had an enemy team pinned down in OUR core area. The guy keeps dropping it and picking it up constantly, then... bam. Suddenly "the enemy has captured our core."
It was obvious from the HUD where it was dropped (in the vents), and yet... somehow he managed to get it all the way across the map...
Just now, had an enemy team pinned down in OUR core area. The guy keeps dropping it and picking it up constantly, then... bam. Suddenly "the enemy has captured our core."
It was obvious from the HUD where it was dropped (in the vents), and yet... somehow he managed to get it all the way across the map...
- Feb 15, 2011
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Nope, tried it myself. It's the same entity as the CTF intel, makes sense that you wouldn't be able to teleport with it.
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evanonline
L420: High Member
- Mar 15, 2009
- 485
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I think the HUD is just fucked up and inaccurate. It would be better if they could work in CTF-esque arrows.
It doesn't seem like the advanced option to highlight payload/CTF/SD objectives works on RD, which sucks a lot!
Feeeebbbdbdbback!
Pros-
1) Really interesting geometry. One of the things that has been true of a lot of modern TF2 levels is a reliance on outdoor environments. Other than gorge, roughly 70% of any given level is in an external combat space. Asteroid has, by comparison, 70% (if not more) of the level indoors, and what is indoors looks awesome. There are all sorts of interesting paths and routes to get inside, which makes the map fun to play, and helps alleviate some of the problems associated with CTF maps (which have a similar sort of fortress structure) with a game mode that spreads itself all over the base, as opposed to an absolute focus on the intel.
2) Space theme looks like its shaping up to be amazing. This is tied in with the first point, but it should be said that a lot of really interesting ideas seem to brew the crazier the TF2 theme goes. Farms are pretty boring, lots of really solid 90 degree structures with pragmatics, but a space fortress on a floating asteroid? Neat!
3) Layouts (as they are currently set up) are pretty intuitive, compared with the original layout with the teleporter.
Cons-
1) Game mode is very binary in terms of progression. I've played the map several times where a team would secure 100 to 200 points quite quickly, and then the game would grind to a halt as the sentry farms started to develop. I've played matches where the score line was 15-15 for ten+ minutes, with neither team really being able to secure any additional points. I've also seen a single core grab create such a ridiculous deficit that the other team could never come back from it.
Basically, the game mode seems to have a real momentum problem: nothing seems to be able to push players into actually accumulating points. In a payload or a/d map, the defending team wins if the offenders do nothing; the game mode naturally resolves itself if the players are incapable of breaking a stalemate. In a 5cp map, if you complete a round and earn a point, you are in an advantageous position, because it means that if both teams turn into goldfish (leave there computers, afk, die in their seats) the game mode still completes. The team with the highest rounds won wins when time runs out. This means that there is a significant incentive to win rounds, instead of sitting around and waiting for an opportune moment. Obviously the team that is ahead does have some incentive not to push in (they'll win by being ahead) but the other team then has a priority to push in, and vice versa once that teams wins some rounds. ]
The point is, I don't like game modes that allow players to do nothing for extremely long periods of time without some sort of punishment or positive incentive to push out. RD, as it is currently set up, gives players just that opportunity. You can sit in your base for forever, build up a ridiculous defense and it will take the attackers a really long time to actually score even a slight amount of points (the robots at the front give like nothing, and the secondary ones dont' give much either).
2) I hate shooting robots. I mean, MVM is fine, those bots at least move around, shoot at you, pop ubers, etc. These little objective bots are really annoying, and I dont like them. First, they are not particularly hard to shoot, they don't move or dodge when you're firing at them, but you do have to stare straight at them if you want to land any shots. What this means, is that while you are accomplishing your objectives an enemy player has a chance to sneak up on you and get the drop on you. No other game mode has this issue; in a payload map you have to stand near the cart, but you can look around and shoot at anyone who comes close, in a CP map you can move anywhere in the capture zone, peak any place that's visible and predict enemy movements. In RD you can't, you have to stare pretty much right at the bot as you shoot it, and anyone can sneak up on you from your peripheral vision and take advantage of you accomplishing your objective. Not fun! You shouldn't be punished by the enemy team for doing what you should be doing, just because they can look around and you can't.
But, even if we ignore that, the way that the different classes deal damage to the bots are annoying as well. Pyro and heavy have a real easy time shooting the bots, they deal continuous damage at close range (where you have to be to collect the resource anyway) and they do so in a way where if someone does attack them they can switch targets very quickly. Scouts, soldiers, demomen and pretty much everybody else have a really hard time actually accomplishing the objective in the face of enemies in the area. Any other game mode, with the exception of scouts getting additional capture, all of the classes are perfectly capable of actually accomplishing the objective. To me this seems like a real weakness. I don't feel like I should be punished for choosing a class that has flexible combat movement and limited ammo, when it comes to actually accomplishing the objective. I shouldn't have to choose a specific class when capturing a point, pushing a cart, why should I have to do so when shooting a robot? A class that reloads can just as easily capture a point, push a cart, capture intel, etc.
In some sense, I really just want more of a capture point mechanic. If I stand in a given area, I just naturally score points for my team. If an enemy player moves into the capture zone, I'm blocked until I take care of them. My ammo and weaponry is reserved for players I'm fighting, not for the objective I'm trying to accomplish! Standing in a given area should be enough.
I know that's not very exciting from a "wwooooooo coollllll robots!" point of view, but I've always thought flashy shit like that is annoying to play with anyway. Give me simple, easy to understand objectives that don't require me bending over backward to accomplish.
3) The core seems annoying to capture because of all the work you have to do to get it out. Vents are annoying, the one way door is annoying, the lasers are really tiresome (i've died so many times because its impossible to wait for them to lift while strafing, something you do compulsively as a scout to make sure you're ready to move when its time). It feels like the degree to which the enemy team has to be sleeping for you to accumulate enough points is already so high, that you don't need a ton of additional hoops to jump through to get out with the core.
The vent shouldn't be so long, and it shouldn't have pipes that force me to crouch when I enter. Its a tight narrow corridor that I can't dodge in, if the enemy team comes for me I'm dead anyway, I shouldn't be put into a huge disadvantage at the same time.
Lasers should be wider apart (not by much, just enough for modest strafing while you wait for them to drop).
one way door can stay, so its easy to get in. But its pretty frustrating that it exists. Its one of those things where I'm sure a lot of players are pretty flummoxed when they come back and the door doesn't work.
Pros-
1) Really interesting geometry. One of the things that has been true of a lot of modern TF2 levels is a reliance on outdoor environments. Other than gorge, roughly 70% of any given level is in an external combat space. Asteroid has, by comparison, 70% (if not more) of the level indoors, and what is indoors looks awesome. There are all sorts of interesting paths and routes to get inside, which makes the map fun to play, and helps alleviate some of the problems associated with CTF maps (which have a similar sort of fortress structure) with a game mode that spreads itself all over the base, as opposed to an absolute focus on the intel.
2) Space theme looks like its shaping up to be amazing. This is tied in with the first point, but it should be said that a lot of really interesting ideas seem to brew the crazier the TF2 theme goes. Farms are pretty boring, lots of really solid 90 degree structures with pragmatics, but a space fortress on a floating asteroid? Neat!
3) Layouts (as they are currently set up) are pretty intuitive, compared with the original layout with the teleporter.
Cons-
1) Game mode is very binary in terms of progression. I've played the map several times where a team would secure 100 to 200 points quite quickly, and then the game would grind to a halt as the sentry farms started to develop. I've played matches where the score line was 15-15 for ten+ minutes, with neither team really being able to secure any additional points. I've also seen a single core grab create such a ridiculous deficit that the other team could never come back from it.
Basically, the game mode seems to have a real momentum problem: nothing seems to be able to push players into actually accumulating points. In a payload or a/d map, the defending team wins if the offenders do nothing; the game mode naturally resolves itself if the players are incapable of breaking a stalemate. In a 5cp map, if you complete a round and earn a point, you are in an advantageous position, because it means that if both teams turn into goldfish (leave there computers, afk, die in their seats) the game mode still completes. The team with the highest rounds won wins when time runs out. This means that there is a significant incentive to win rounds, instead of sitting around and waiting for an opportune moment. Obviously the team that is ahead does have some incentive not to push in (they'll win by being ahead) but the other team then has a priority to push in, and vice versa once that teams wins some rounds. ]
The point is, I don't like game modes that allow players to do nothing for extremely long periods of time without some sort of punishment or positive incentive to push out. RD, as it is currently set up, gives players just that opportunity. You can sit in your base for forever, build up a ridiculous defense and it will take the attackers a really long time to actually score even a slight amount of points (the robots at the front give like nothing, and the secondary ones dont' give much either).
2) I hate shooting robots. I mean, MVM is fine, those bots at least move around, shoot at you, pop ubers, etc. These little objective bots are really annoying, and I dont like them. First, they are not particularly hard to shoot, they don't move or dodge when you're firing at them, but you do have to stare straight at them if you want to land any shots. What this means, is that while you are accomplishing your objectives an enemy player has a chance to sneak up on you and get the drop on you. No other game mode has this issue; in a payload map you have to stand near the cart, but you can look around and shoot at anyone who comes close, in a CP map you can move anywhere in the capture zone, peak any place that's visible and predict enemy movements. In RD you can't, you have to stare pretty much right at the bot as you shoot it, and anyone can sneak up on you from your peripheral vision and take advantage of you accomplishing your objective. Not fun! You shouldn't be punished by the enemy team for doing what you should be doing, just because they can look around and you can't.
But, even if we ignore that, the way that the different classes deal damage to the bots are annoying as well. Pyro and heavy have a real easy time shooting the bots, they deal continuous damage at close range (where you have to be to collect the resource anyway) and they do so in a way where if someone does attack them they can switch targets very quickly. Scouts, soldiers, demomen and pretty much everybody else have a really hard time actually accomplishing the objective in the face of enemies in the area. Any other game mode, with the exception of scouts getting additional capture, all of the classes are perfectly capable of actually accomplishing the objective. To me this seems like a real weakness. I don't feel like I should be punished for choosing a class that has flexible combat movement and limited ammo, when it comes to actually accomplishing the objective. I shouldn't have to choose a specific class when capturing a point, pushing a cart, why should I have to do so when shooting a robot? A class that reloads can just as easily capture a point, push a cart, capture intel, etc.
In some sense, I really just want more of a capture point mechanic. If I stand in a given area, I just naturally score points for my team. If an enemy player moves into the capture zone, I'm blocked until I take care of them. My ammo and weaponry is reserved for players I'm fighting, not for the objective I'm trying to accomplish! Standing in a given area should be enough.
I know that's not very exciting from a "wwooooooo coollllll robots!" point of view, but I've always thought flashy shit like that is annoying to play with anyway. Give me simple, easy to understand objectives that don't require me bending over backward to accomplish.
3) The core seems annoying to capture because of all the work you have to do to get it out. Vents are annoying, the one way door is annoying, the lasers are really tiresome (i've died so many times because its impossible to wait for them to lift while strafing, something you do compulsively as a scout to make sure you're ready to move when its time). It feels like the degree to which the enemy team has to be sleeping for you to accumulate enough points is already so high, that you don't need a ton of additional hoops to jump through to get out with the core.
The vent shouldn't be so long, and it shouldn't have pipes that force me to crouch when I enter. Its a tight narrow corridor that I can't dodge in, if the enemy team comes for me I'm dead anyway, I shouldn't be put into a huge disadvantage at the same time.
Lasers should be wider apart (not by much, just enough for modest strafing while you wait for them to drop).
one way door can stay, so its easy to get in. But its pretty frustrating that it exists. Its one of those things where I'm sure a lot of players are pretty flummoxed when they come back and the door doesn't work.
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evanonline
L420: High Member
- Mar 15, 2009
- 485
- 273
Impressions from the new update to Asteroid:
- Perfect in terms of layout, very intuitive and simple now, there's no really big chokes left, it's perfectly navigable and fun to fight in! They could easily get to work detailing it right now, I think.
- However, matches still take FAR too long to play out. It's fun the whole way through because the current layout is great. But it just drags on still. My recommendation would be the up the amount of points each robot kill gives you. Their placement is fine, has nothing to do with it--since it's not very easy to turtle up in the main entrance, it's easy to sneak around and score a few points off the A robots now and again after the other team starts getting defensive, but 5 points isn't enough to help swing things around.
The robots giving more points makes the map move faster, but it would still keep the excitement and fun of making big point steals on the other team, which is something you'd lose if you kept the current point spreads and just lowered the required amount of points for a victory to 200. I think 300 is a good amount of points for victory in this gamemode, you just need more points to change hands.
I'd double the amount of points you get from each robot tier entirely.
- It's a little easy to forget the C robots are upstairs when you're attacking. I'd put some A/B/C signage in the areas the robots run around in, and put some arrows pointing to the C area.
- I'm still not a fan of having to crouch to go through the vent, that's maybe the only thing left with the new layout that I think needs work.
Toomai
L3: Member
- Apr 14, 2011
- 129
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One thing that may help stop stalemates is a timer, say 10 or 15 minutes. When time runs out and overtime begins, for every second that there's no stolen cores anywhere out on the map, the victory condition drops by 1. Eventually, the target score will drop low enough that someone will win, and if you're behind you'll need to start pulling out stops to get ahead of the other team before it happens. If the score drops to a value and both teams are tied there...well it could be called a draw I guess, since the alternative of "just get 1 more to win" won't help break a stalemate.
- Feb 15, 2011
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Still a big problem with the map. All it takes is one good uber or a few key backstabs, the team that loses control of their own lobby is the team that loses the game more often than not. Once a team loses that much ground, they're quickly forced back to their spawn and then it's over for them. At this point, the attacking team will have unrestricted access to the A bots, which will slowly but surely put them in the lead - in addition to whatever they can get from B and C bots. It's a death sentence unless the losing team can sneak someone into the enemy vault, which is no small feat, but if they pull it off they can either equalise the playing field or turn the tables entirely. Which sucks for the team with the 250 point lead that suddenly finds themselves in their opponent's position - trapped by their spawn with almost no chance of recouping their losses.
But that sounds like normal TF2 play? Any 5CP or A/D map plays the exact same way.
- Feb 15, 2011
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Good 5CP maps allow a strong team to break the enemy's hold on the area and push back out. This is very difficult to accomplish on Asteroid. Too difficult.
A/D maps are asymmetrical, so yeah, one team's supposed to have an advantage.
evanonline
L420: High Member
- Mar 15, 2009
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I don't really feel "trapped" in the current iteration of Asteroid like I did in the second version. The second version was nothing but a meat grinder. I wouldn't mind seeing how the map plays with some more room but right now I'm really enjoying the current version, the only problem I really have is how long matches last.
...uh, and
Also, if Valve is reading this, can you guys make it so 5CP maps on Valve servers go to Stalemate when the Map Timer runs out? It's always really saddening when you're playing, often close to victory, when you suddenly get put into a loss because the other team won more rounds than you, and your entire team erupts in screams of "BUT WHY DID WE LOSE, THIS GAME IS BROKEN??" This has been happening for years man. Happens in CTF, too. No one pays attention to individual round wins, just put maps into stalemate mode to denote it when a map runs out of overall time.
...uh, and
Also, if Valve is reading this, can you guys make it so 5CP maps on Valve servers go to Stalemate when the Map Timer runs out? It's always really saddening when you're playing, often close to victory, when you suddenly get put into a loss because the other team won more rounds than you, and your entire team erupts in screams of "BUT WHY DID WE LOSE, THIS GAME IS BROKEN??" This has been happening for years man. Happens in CTF, too. No one pays attention to individual round wins, just put maps into stalemate mode to denote it when a map runs out of overall time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cpXpgjUT2k
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This is the best ambiant sound you could use imo.
EDIT: Oh and the gamemode is bad imo.
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This is the best ambiant sound you could use imo.
EDIT: Oh and the gamemode is bad imo.
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That would be a great ambient sound if it was audible in the human range of hearing. This is the ambient sound based on electronic waves, not audible waves.
The best ambient sound for asteroid is none at all. (In it's current state. I'm assuming there will be something else to will say "Hey, there's air on this rock!)
For what it's worth, I finally understand how the mode works. It's relatively straightforward once it's been explained, and the trouble is that they've never done the best job of that. The latest changes to the HUD were what finally made it click that stealing the power core was how to get back the energy they had taken from your downed robots, and not just a golden snitch that happens to be worth a lot more points.
I'm still not entirely sure why the announcer's voice line didn't convey that clearly enough for me, aside from being frequently drowned out by people talking. That said, the reason it was so often drowned out was that it plays whenever you join a team instead of at the beginning of the round. That was probably intended to make it more likely to be heard by people who join late, especially considering how long the rounds last. I'm hoping they make a proper intro video when it's ready to go final; that'll help. And maybe have the announcer reiterate that power can be stolen back when the enemy team reaches the 25 point minimum.
I'm still not entirely sure why the announcer's voice line didn't convey that clearly enough for me, aside from being frequently drowned out by people talking. That said, the reason it was so often drowned out was that it plays whenever you join a team instead of at the beginning of the round. That was probably intended to make it more likely to be heard by people who join late, especially considering how long the rounds last. I'm hoping they make a proper intro video when it's ready to go final; that'll help. And maybe have the announcer reiterate that power can be stolen back when the enemy team reaches the 25 point minimum.