The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers: A Community / Valve Discussion

fubarFX

The "raw" in "nodraw"
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Jun 1, 2009
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Its been suggested before, but the tagged crates from officialized maps I think is the simpliest nd most efficient idea, at least for mapsthat are currently in the game.

that's great and all but that doesn't create value. we would only be cannibalizing an existing revenue stream.
...it's always simple when it's someone else's money.
 

xzzy

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Jan 30, 2010
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that's great and all but that doesn't create value. we would only be cannibalizing an existing revenue stream.
...it's always simple when it's someone else's money.

It was always going to be cannibalizing an existing revenue stream, keys are TF2's only real source of income. Hat sales are certainly income as well but I think we all know that charging to download a map will never work.

A system already exists to give money directly to mappers and while it does generate some revenue, stamps are chump change compared to the millions that keys bring in.
 
Sep 19, 2010
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The money is in cosmetics. The problem being our item in the game is a map, not a hat. I think we need to find a way to create map specific cosmetics, whether it be paints (hat or weapon), hats, miscs. I think maybe get someone to make these and then give them a cut of every sale. It would be more or less a favor from them. Obviously, easier said than done.
 

Dr. Spud

Grossly Incandescent
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Mar 23, 2009
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I like Grizzly's idea. To take it further:

> There's an item set for each community map (Hat + misc perhaps).

> All the proceeds for those items go to the map maker.

> The set has a special property, in which wearing it on that map will do something cool. E.g. if you have the frontier set, when you cap a point on frontier you make a wolf sound effect.


Who makes the items?
- Maybe the map maker is responsible for submitting items. Item makers might band together to help make them
- Maybe Valve makes them
- Maybe there are already good items on the workshop that can be altered to be map items, and Valve sacrifices their cut of those items

Variations:
- These items only drop when playing on that community map, making them rare.
- Instead of buying them from the mann co store, you get them when you donate a certain amount to that map.
 

Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
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Nov 14, 2009
4,694
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The money is in cosmetics. The problem being our item in the game is a map, not a hat. I think we need to find a way to create map specific cosmetics, whether it be paints (hat or weapon), hats, miscs. I think maybe get someone to make these and then give them a cut of every sale. It would be more or less a favor from them. Obviously, easier said than done.
This is basically the exact same thing that stamps already are, except with slightly more desirable rewards. And it has the same problem: It takes cosmetics, which are supposed to be desirable for their appearance, and turns them into a way of saying "I like a thing and I gave the person who made it some of my money". Basically it's a PBS tote bag. I think the reason Valve is looking into ways to add direct post-release payouts for mappers is because they realized that relying on handouts wasn't acceptable.

The most direct way to do that is to just pay them a small percentage of the game's total revenue, based on how much play the maps get on tracked servers. It seems that doing anything else is just adding another layer of abstraction purely for its own sake. To make things "more interesting", as if this were some sort of game show. That said, the best suggestions I've heard so far were the one where supporting a map earns you a higher drop rate when you play on it, and the one where crates are tied to the map they dropped in. Those involve supplementing systems that were already put in the game to make things "more interesting", and already add a layer of abstraction to how much money creators earn.

Something that concerns me right now is that, if people earn money for their maps even if they haven't been added to the game, what incentive is there to get a map added to the game? If quickplay doesn't change, then it will mean a lot more players, but people were complaining that quickplay needs to be more lenient too. The only perk seems to be the initial payout, which could be considerably dwarfed by what they're already earning. And if the map is already in quickplay and the Workshop makes it less of a hassle to jump on a server running a custom map, Valve doesn't really have any incentive to buy new maps anymore either.
 
Sep 19, 2010
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- Instead of buying them from the mann co store, you get them when you donate a certain amount to that map.
Perhaps even have milestones? Buy 5 map stamps, get a random weapon. Buy 10, get a random cosmetic. Buy 25, get a map specific cosmetic. Maybe something along those lines. I also like the idea of map sets.
 

Godling

L2: Junior Member
Oct 26, 2007
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A 'Tip-Jar' is what each map needs. Would be hilarious if there was actually a tip-jar prop of some kind in each maps spawn room for players to donate. :love:
 

henke37

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Sep 23, 2011
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Not particularly difficult to implement actually. Just the prop, a trigger and a button prompt.
 

Harribo

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Nov 1, 2009
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Higher drop-rates are fine until you consider the trading side of things. Metal inflation is a problem TF2 has, which you can see from the increased in cost of keys using metal. This only looks to exacerbate this problem and Valve do see this as a problem. I think it's a good idea but Valve won't consider that before they fix the inflation issue I expect.

I think the World Traveller Hat could be expanded on as an idea. At the moment people don't take much interest to it because A) It's stops them wearing their favourite hat their class has B) The 'unusual' effect isn't that interesting/popular. I think turning map filters into a cosmetic item effects would be better. Give community maps a specific particle each or a pool of particles each relevant to the map's theme and allow people to put map specific unusual effects on any hat they like. When they play their favourite maps they have an unusual hat, it compounds their interest in that map as they are more likely to play the map they have a cool thing for and so more community maps get played in the process too
 

henke37

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Sep 23, 2011
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It wouldn't be the first time that Valve has messed with old maps. They have even cheated and used files with extra props to add in existing maps.
 

Arnold

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 18, 2008
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I know this will probably go against the main idea of not having tf2 be a pay-to-win game, but I think having the top contributor hat
250px-Philateler.png

add a special effect that could either be, slowly heal, faster respawning, slightly faster walking speed or any other small buff maybe even have the player choose which one he wants to use for the day. Could provide a decent incentive. Obviously each server could set a plugin value of either allowing this to take place or not, and it wouldn't be allowed in tournament mode which should be obvious.

I think having a small buff (to be determined) and the fact that the player will be clearly marked as a target while wearing the hat should balance itself out and add a slight dynamic that could be fun. It's a hat that only one player at a time can have anyway and seeing how some people really enjoy the times when Robin comes in and completely destroys them with the valve rocket launcher this could be a tiny micro version of this.

What could also work as an incentive is to have the world travelers hat have a unique effect that is funny or desirable instead of the stamps flying around which is neither funny or really desirable.

maybe the hat could give you a taunt depending on the amount you contributed on said map, like a lot of coins falling on the ground while dancing or something along those lines that's unique or funny enough to have.

The world travelers hat just needs an incentive.
 
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ManBeaR

L2: Junior Member
Apr 20, 2014
78
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That will break the game. Not totally break it, but a little. If it was so that it only worked on valve servers, I wouldn't really mind tho.
 

UKCS-Alias

Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?
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Sep 8, 2008
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The world travelers hat just needs an incentive.
On the MVP window having an Most Valuable Contributor would also be pay to win but not harm gameplay :p

That means, the number of map stamps as score :p

And any pay to win for normal play isnt good, its why the stats on the hats are removed.

A passive particle that is active on the map when you play it would already be better. However, you ofcourse dont want to harm the other particle options like an inusual.

But we still have room for it! When you kill an enemy show the particle as if you have taunted (that is the stamp trail behind you). Allowing you to turn it off at will for each loadout (in case you spy for example). The lenght is decided by the stamp count so a big contributor would have a well visible trail while a lesser contributor will be noticed less, but still noticed.
 
Sep 7, 2012
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When this topic popped up on teamfortress.tv a while back (as it often does), the folks over there were trying to find a way to get Valve to support competitive TF2. As with mapping, the main issue is that the people working on the TF team don't really have the time to come up with ideas that a select percentage of their playerbase would benefit from, leaving the majority to wallow in disappointment. So there were quite a few ideas thrown around that would involve making competitive TF2 profitable, or at least marketable, to give Valve an incentive to spend more time on it. We have a similar situation with mapping, and now it seems that Valve has contacted us, hoping to provide some ideas.

I have a small idea that would connect bits and pieces of the two issues (and perhaps even solve a third) that I'd like to explain for a bit. I'll try not to make it too troublesome to read.

It all starts with a competitive matchmaking system, similar in some respects to the one implemented for Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. For the purposes of this example I'll deal strictly with the 6v6 competitive format, but obviously one can swap that for Highlander and a similar situation would apply.

So, you can either play by yourself or with a group of up to 6 friends, and join a lobby. You'd have to select your class role beforehand, choosing one of:
- Medic
- Demoman
- Pocket Soldier
- Roaming Soldier
- Utility
Now here's the interesting part: just like CS:GO, perhaps you can specify what maps you want to play on. Choose from Valve maps like Badlands and Granary, or community maps like Process, Gullywash, or Snakewater.
But where does the money come in? Tickets. Just like MvM has two options for playing (Mann Up and Boot Camp), competitive play could have two options as well: Challenge and Casual. To play casually, there's no fee involved. But to play Challenge, you must each use a ticket, purchased at the Mann Co Store or from other Steam users on the community Market. Perhaps they'd cost $1 each, or perhaps cheaper. Just like MvM, on completion of a match, you have a chance at winning some items. These could be hats, or they could be items with no use but crafting (like the robot parts from MvM). You could craft wacky gimmick items like Australium rocket launchers or shiny killstreak kits from them, or it could be some new weapon with a "competitive" theme, just like the botkiller weapons are MvM-themed. This would open up a stream of new revenue that could be split between the mapmakers and Valve. Obviously maps that are geared towards competitive play would have an advantage here. If the players play on a stock map like Badlands instead, then perhaps Valve can pocket that money away and save it for a rainy day (or donate it to the prize pool for a community league, like ETF2L or UGC, or even CEVO or ESEA).

But wait! There's more!
There's obviously some concern over unlockable weapons and what is legal to use in a competitive match. And that's how this idea might solve a third issue that Valve is dealing with: the rise of key prices and the lower value of scrap metal. I propose that NO UNLOCKS be allowed in Challenge mode, at all. Not the Gunboats, not the Kritzkrieg, not the Boston Basher. Instead, players can craft "smuggling kits" from their competitive/robot parts, which can be crafted with regular items to make a consumable weapon for use in a competitive match. Just like Duel Mini-Games, the "Smuggled Winger" might have 5 uses before it is consumed completely and must be recrafted. You can use 2-3 of these weapons each match, perhaps equipped in a cosmetic load-out slot or something. Or, the weapons can just permit you to use identical weapons, which would let you use those Stranges you love so much. Weapons on the whitelist of the major leages (like the Gunboats or Kritzkrieg) could craft into a 10-use item, while banned weapons (like the Powerjack) could craft into a 3 or 5-use item, to deal with people using money to pay their way into using unbalanced weapons. Alternatively, if even ONE player unlocks a weapon during a match, then all players could use it (similar to the way the Squad Surplus tickets work). This would stop people complaining about pay-to-win, etc.

Let me know what you think. This is obviously a very rough outline of an idea and needs some thought and some yelling to refine.
 

fubarFX

The "raw" in "nodraw"
aa
Jun 1, 2009
1,720
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hey you know what would make people feel really good about their epenises without changing anything to the game? killstreak multipliers! it could be added to existing killstreak weapons for any selected map, much like map filters.

it's kinda over the top stupid so it would make sense to limit it to 1 map per weapon.
-easy to implement
-no additional assets required
-free money basically