Stark b3

The previous necro I made in this thread was for the 5CP Stark. We pugged the koth version the other night, guess I'll bump this again with that stuff, in case you still have an interest in finishing either project:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vol5mkwqc2472ic

Stark played all right, until we realized how powerful an engie and a heavy could be. At the end, both team's were running a sniper, an engie, and a heavy. The sentries were really annoying and the ramps/walkways up to the point were so small that it was really dangerous to use them, but a medic doesn't really have any other option to access the point. The cap time on the point seemed really long too.

Also, there are a lot of places where you can hide sticks in rocks and props:

In this rock


In this rain gutter pipe:


In this rock:


And this rock, basically, every rock on the map that's big enough

Citizen Snips said:

Bump of the ages.

Click to expand...

Yes, but if it at least gets a new version of Koth Stark, I for one will be pleased.

*sinister laughing*

I think the map has some promise if the pathways on mid can be widened. Scout just isn't viable, and heavy/engy are great in the tight spaces with height advantage. An alternate route around mid could work quite well, because it takes just one player to lock down the route under the bridge and deny any flanking.

This map had a really nice look to it. A stony bridge, outdoor complex in winter. Stark really is the perfect word for it. There were some nice details, the rock walls, the rooms you couldn't get to and the ambient feel of a cold winter night. While it looked great, I felt I've played on bridges with ramps up to them before, but you did it best Once the narrow bridge was taken, I felt a lot of classes that didn't have explosive weapons became useless to get the defense out of the trench of a bridge (the rails offer a lot of cover). Even coming up at the side didn't feel effective. I'll need to give this another play when I have more time

they greydrab update


this finally looks like it belongs in a modern fps of our generation

I’m going to start doing this for all the maps UGC are playtesting, so others have an idea how much a map improves over time with our playtests. We don’t playtest the crap out of a map. All it takes is a simple playtest if we believe your map would work in comp. Some might not like comp and I can understand. I’ve always been saying this if it works in TF2 Highlander with 18 players, organized pushes, holds, etc then it’s big enough for 24-32 slot servers. It seems Valve have been adding comp maps lately(process/standin/snakewater), I still think it’s possible to make a Valve map that doesn’t involve comp if done right.

I love maps ever since I started playing Half-Life 1998-2007, we played a lot of custom maps in leagues and I believe UGC can help a lot of map makers in this community. I’ve always had a good feeling about maps if something can work or not. We take the highest divisions in UGC to do these playtests. There’s a lot of players in UGC that wants to see better maps and are willing to go the distance if the map maker is willing to do it with us. Hopefully some map makers will learn some stuff from these reviews. My team http://steamcommunity.com/groups/pi-pi and I are no experts, we just think we can help the mapping community since it seems it lacks the right feedback.

Again sorry to YM for posting this in his map thread.

How it started with Stark
Sometime last year I was browsing around the tf2maps.net library looking at map pics and randomly dl maps. I remember this snowy koth map and I forgot the name of it. The pictures looked pretty cool http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=3669 Around Christmas I was determined to find the map again. It took me some time with all the maps on the website. I’ve always wanted to focus on maps for UGC, but time was a big thing for me running TF2 HL until I recently stepped down so I can focus on our map problem, projects, and building Dota2.

What I thought about Stark_b1
Once I looked around the map, I just knew it would be awesome for TF2 Highlander which I don’t normally get on most maps that I play. The map had a cp_yukon 2nd mixed feeling with koth_viaduct cliffs. I think it’s important finding different kinds of koth maps and not the same styles. Koth_stark is on a bridge, not really on a hill like most koth maps are which gives it a unique feel to it. It also gives 3 options to push from; left or right side and under the bridge.

There were problems I could see right away with the map. Stark was snowy and a very dark setting. Those two things are pretty bad for comp, even the lighting was pretty damn good for a dark map. I do think you can get away with a dark or snowy map for comp if done right. The red and blue models in a dark map just reminds me of the map koth_lolcano hard to see who’s who etc. There was also a tower you can build on with a level 3 spamming down on the opponents side that we saw before we even playtested it. The skybox was really high. Another thing it didn’t look like a sniper friendly map, which can be good depending on how bad it is. When I look at maps I have an idea what’s going to happen, but I won’t tell it to the map maker until he or she sees it themselves. I know once that happens, they know they need to make a change if something doesn’t look right or when you have both teams telling you the same thing in mumble.

Getting in touch with YM
I added YM on steam just after Christmas and asked him if he would be interested playtesting his map and making changes based on constructive feedback. At first I wasn’t sure if he was open for it, to me he’s a celebrity who made 2 Valve maps, very well known, and been around TF2 mapping from the start. He also hadn’t updated Stark in 3+ years, so I was crossing my fingers. Coming from a head admin/ex platinum comp player I wasn’t sure how he would respond to my offer. He was on board and I was thrilled to death. YM thought I wanted the 5cp stark version since I was coming from comp. I didn’t even download the 5cp version, I was just interested in the koth one.

Then a few days later I set up a playtest so he can make it, which is very important! I make sure any map maker that UGC works with at least comes to the first playtest. This is where you get the most feedback from organized teams all live in the same mumble. It can be a lot to take in at first, it’s not always pretty with all the feedback and changes that might be needed. It only gets better after that as long as the map maker is willing to make changes based on playtests and feedback. If the map maker isn’t willing it’s not worth both of our times.

First Playtest
jan 11th koth_stark pvp vs the 9 doges 8:30pm est
jan 11th koth_stark pvp vs syfy 9:30pm est

January 11th at 8:30pm est & 9:30pm est back to back playtests which is hard to pull off. YM said he would stay up 1:30am-4:30am his time, which was great! A little delay getting both teams in mumble and server at the same time. Things normally start later than scheduled when you’re dealing with 18 players.

Here’s some of the things I’ll point out that we found before playtesting and during the playtest.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#0
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#1
Need to keep it the same

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#2
Heavy was able to shoot through the fence with his minigun

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#3
Pretty skybox, but everyone agreed it had to go. I felt bad for YM, so I told him if you can keep it somewhat purple sky that could be cool.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#4
Gives it a nice feel

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#5
You can build up here and a level 3 sentry is just way overpowered. It shuts down all 3 entrances. No build zone, soldiers/demos shouldn’t be allowed up there, and lower the skybox people wanted to see. I also suggested to possibly make sniper useful in this area. Either add a walkway or make that ledge accessible so they can snipe from. Just like we see in viaduct or lakeside, but nothing too crazy.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#6
Feels a bit cramped and plays like it

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#7
Needs to go wider and more space to move around

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#8
One of the two ways to get on the bridge where the point is, the pathway needs to go wider.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#9
Just not enough space

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#10
Other side is better; a little tight

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#11
Looks a little wider once you get towards the top.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#12
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#13
There’s not much room around the point and that’s where a lot of the action takes place. It’s not easy to get off point right away being so cramped up. Barely enough room for a combo(med/demo), let alone a spy going around it.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#14
A lot of stuff going on here in narrow spaces

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#15
Arfie from pvp suggested to open up the tower to make sniper useful.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#16
Safe place for engie/medic, just need to space it out a bit more

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#17
This ledge is good in the back for soldier/demo/scout, not sure why you would be back here if you were those classes. It would be a nice sniper spot if it wasn’t for the fence. Barrels on this side when the other side doesn’t.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#18
Just not enough room for anyone to move around.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#19
YM has the right idea for the most part, wider is better and space to move around a bit

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#20
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#21
Going up that left side in a narrow path is never good

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#22
Best sniper sightline unless you push forward as a team so sniper can stay on the bridge(point)

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#23
Layout is pretty solid

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#24
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#25
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#26
Not much room especially for scout/sniper


jan 11th koth_stark_b1 pvp vs the 9 doges 8:30pm est
http://logs.tf/160699
jan 11th koth_stark_b1 pvp vs syfy 9:30pm est
http://logs.tf/160719


UGC has 5 divisions; Plat, Gold, Silver, Steel, and Iron in that order. I normally get Gold and Silver teams to playtest in the early stages. Once a map is pretty well developed then I’ll get our best teams in Platinum to playtest it. Pvp is a mid to high silver team, the 9 doges were a high silver/low gold team, and syfy is a high gold team. The first playtest isn’t a matter of getting even teams within the same division, it’s a basic playtest that we want to see what happens. If a team rolls someone which can happen in any division and something on the map really determines that, we can fix it if the map maker is willing to do that. The main focus is to get the map right so anything unfair about the map is removed. UGC’s lower divisions Steel and Iron will have more rolls since those divisions aren’t as balanced as the rest of the league. Getting a map right won’t be as bad for them when it’s time to play it in our league. After the 1st playtest and changes are made, that’s when you need to keep it even division vs division. There’s some high Silver teams that can hang with some Gold teams etc.

The second game was a bit unfair, but at the same time one of the engineers(Grizz) sentry jumped on that tower when his team was pushing forward. We talked about that spot before the game. YM saw how OP it was which is a very good thing.

Overall people wanted the map with more space, sentry spot on tower no build zone and no jump zone, remove the snow, remove the darkness, reduce the height of skybox a bit, give sniper some sightlines. Most of the players liked it and some didn’t because their class was hard to play in tight spaces. YM really appreciated the playtest.

The Next Stage b2
The last playtest was on a Saturday night, which was YM’s Sunday morning. In less than 24 hours he completely redid stark. I was blown away how fast he was doing these changes, which means a lot to UGC working with someone like this. The team got really excited and couldn’t wait to playtest it again. We never expected super fast changes from anyone.

Before
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=3669

After
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13124

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#27
Before

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#28
After; right side doorway

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#29
Another pic of the doorway

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#30
There was a pretty big clipping where the sticky is. You couldn’t walk out of the doorway unless you hugged the left side(right coming out). Easy fix for b3

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#31
YES! This ledge is useful now for any class not just sniper

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#32
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#33
Wider is better

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#34
Far pic coming from the left side; looks great

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#35
Sniper tower added

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#36
Much better, more room

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#37
Looking into the left side rollout; space is good

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#38
uh oh! Only on Blue side; easy fix

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#39
Closer look at the sniper tower

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#40
Sometimes you get stuck walking through the door; not as bad as the sniper ledge; easy fix

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#41
Looking good

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#42
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#43
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#44
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#45
Looks great; It’s good to only have one side of the tower and not both or else it would be OP; having it on one side is perfect

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#46
Only the blue side; easy fix

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#47
A lot better now

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#48
Wow! Makes the pathways from left and right better now

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#49
What a difference

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#50
WHAT! He added a train! Train rotates going across each side every so often. The sniper tower shakes just enough where it doesn’t affect your aim! How cool is that! Train cables even dangle when train crosses, pretty neat.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#51
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#52
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#53
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#54
There’s more room now to get around

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#55
Looks great

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#56
It’s wider now, don’t have to go all the way on the left side to get up;
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#57
Looks narrow til you get at the top, just before the bridge it opens up

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#58
What a difference; enough cover as well

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#59
Very nice

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#60
There’s more room from the b1 version

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#61
Small clipping issue


The Next Playtest b3

jan 18th koth_stark_b3 team venture vs crystal kingdom royal highlander 9:30pm est

Both teams are in Silver and YM didn’t make it this time around, which was fine with the timezones. I told him I’ll get someone to pov stream it with comms and feedback after with all of us talking in mumble. Team Venture rolled out and pushed under the bridge. The other team wasn’t expecting it and it’s great to see stuff like that in a map.

http://logs.tf/165441
http://www.twitch.tv/discario/b/496355384 (video was down after 10 days)
stv: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51883701/auto-20140119-0237-koth_stark_b3.dem

Everyone enjoyed the map. There’s some tweaking that needs to be done.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#62
The fence should be solid. When teams have a forward push, they shouldn’t see where the enemy is coming from. It’s a bit tough for the other team to jump on the point. Most koth maps are a lot of back and forth capping. This prevents that.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#63
This should be closed off. You can shoot your minigun, rockets, and it’s a pretty nasty sniper sightline that would be hard to counter since he’s safe on the bridge while team is forward pushing. The sniper tower and ledge in the back is plenty for the sniper to do his work.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#64
The sniper ledge in the back is a bit dark

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#65
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#66
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#68
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#67
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#69
Just need to move the light so it’s more visible

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#70
This looks really dark compared to the other side
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#71
Could be a little brighter

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#72
Both teams didn’t like the placement here; suggested to take the health out on both sides and replace one of the small ammo with a small health
1 small ammo under one side; 1 small health under the other

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#41
The doorway should be wider

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#51
Make the tower wider away from the bridge, but don’t cut away any of the free space. You would need to add space somewhere to make up for it.

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#74
Before

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#73
After; nice small change

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#75
b1

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#76
b3

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#77
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#78
b1

http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#79
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#80
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#81
b3

Final thoughts
After two playtests(not counting the double feature) this shows how much can be done to a map by getting the right people to playtest. We took a map that barely got played over the years into something that UGC can possibly use in their league. Hopefully YM keeps updating Stark. There’s a lot of teams that have been asking when the next version will be out. People can get busy and with the 72 hour contest YM was doing his own thing.

Big thanks to YM who’s been great working with! Hopefully you can update it sometime this year. This season is already at the half way point in the regular season, so if you want us to try to play it during summer it would be pretty tight schedule. We need to give teams a couple months at least to take a look at the map and see what they think. Whenever you want to playtest it just let me know. Then we can start plugging it everywhere else. Thanks again YM!

Why does comp hate snow so much?

Trotim said:

Why does comp hate snow so much?

Click to expand...

1) Complaints about framerates. As far as I can tell, the particle affects from people walking on snow is the culprit, though I'm pretty sure the frame loss people complain about is extremely exaggerated.

2) Color blindness. Apparently, color blind players find it very difficult to tell the difference between red and blue players, and the problem is alleviated on alpine maps.

Depending on how positive/negative you feel about comp players, it is extremely easy to imagine a group of players complaining about framerates and then that just spiraling out of control. At this point, you pretty much won't see a comp map with snow due to this conflict.

Colorblindness is the best damn reason i've heard for this. I never thought that snow would make it worse, I was under the impression that snow would make it better.

I like the writeup, a list of bullet points that competitive players find valuable in a map would be super useful. Most people who have been mapping for a while have a vague idea of what comp players enjoy (the running joke is that the uglier a map is the more competitive players like it) but it's never really been itemized.

Most mappers are concerned with making a work of art with a big "wow" factor or coming up with new gameplay mechanics. These goals aren't incompatible with competitive player values, but it does tend to push decisions in a certain direction.. like a barrel on one side of the map being a crate on the other. Mappers see that as visual variety, comp players see it as an unfair advantage.

1) Complaints about framerates. As far as I can tell, the particle affects from people walking on snow is the culprit, though I'm pretty sure the frame loss people complain about is extremely exaggerated.

2) Color blindness. Apparently, color blind players find it very difficult to tell the difference between red and blue players, and the problem is alleviated on alpine maps.

Depending on how positive/negative you feel about comp players, it is extremely easy to imagine a group of players complaining about framerates and then that just spiraling out of control. At this point, you pretty much won't see a comp map with snow due to this conflict.

Click to expand...

Pretty much this for the most part. I used to have a colorblind person on my TF2 Highlander team. Monochromatic Bunny was his name, amazing Platinum pyro who had some of the best DM skills you can get from a pyro. He would have problems in a map like cp_granary where it's very hard to tell who's who and where he is because how the map is designed and respawns. That was without snow, it's just a really tough map for someone that's colorblind coming out of a teleport etc. So you can imagine what it's like with adding snow in the mix.

The framerate issue is more mental for the most part. Some players play on very low settings, turn weather effects off, etc. I think they want to play the map as it is without doing any of that stuff. An increase in fps no matter what it is can be pretty big. I've also heard random people complaining about fps in standard maps like badwater or in certain spots of a map.

I'm pretty open compared to most comp players or even non comp players. I do think it's possible having a snow type map if the design was right. Of course not a map completely filled with snow due to players who are colorblind. Crash's pl_crash is a perfect example of pushing the limits for a snow comp map http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=5550 Small patches of snow, it feels more like a tundra map with small areas of ice and very little snow. You add in a custom skybox, maybe some snowy mountains/trees of some sort or a sky that looks like it's about to snow. There's a bit of options you can do just needs careful planning. Crash added a nice wind feature when you push the cart out and there's very little snow falling from the sky. Things like this you can get away and still be able to play it in comp imo.

I like the writeup, a list of bullet points that competitive players find valuable in a map would be super useful. Most people who have been mapping for a while have a vague idea of what comp players enjoy (the running joke is that the uglier a map is the more competitive players like it) but it's never really been itemized.

Most mappers are concerned with making a work of art with a big "wow" factor or coming up with new gameplay mechanics. These goals aren't incompatible with competitive player values, but it does tend to push decisions in a certain direction.. like a barrel on one side of the map being a crate on the other. Mappers see that as visual variety, comp players see it as an unfair advantage.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I've thought about this for a while now, but I'm not that type of person. My opinions aren't representing the comp scene. What I may think will be different from another comp player etc. Especially since I'm very open compared to other comp players. Plus I don't want to come off like a jerk or anything.

I think that's the problem most mappers are having. Just by seeing a lot of these maps that are coming out lately. The focus is on design and not on balance, gameplay, layout, etc. Where it does matter. I understand some don't want to focus on comp and just make a portfolio to look all nice, that's great to do. This community can map, there's no doubt about that. Really understanding chokes, pushes, sightlines, etc with organized teams and not random players is pretty big.

I've worked with many mappers already thinking they know the basics of things, when they don't. You see the same mistakes over and over, that's not a bad thing. Saying is one thing, but actually showing it in a map is another. Comparing a crate to a barrel is huge, the crate is more protection than the barrel so it's not the same dimensions. It doesn't make sense why one side would have it when the other doesn't. You can still create big wow factors and even new gameplay mechanics if done right.

Hi I'm Ike, a comp player. (UGC Gold)

I don't know much about map-making but I thought I'd offer my two-cents for what it's worth.

Regarding Snow: Framerate is definitely an issue. Don't underestimate the lengths some people will go to in order to get frames. A word to the artsy: if it doesn't have a hitbox, most comp players probably can't even see it. Stuff like that drops frames and hides stickies. (I just bought a better computer; no fun mode is too much for me) I've also heard that snowy maps are dark and monochromatic. It can make it hard to see, especially at a distance. Bright light and contrast are preferred. I can see this argument, but I'm in the category with Rum that doesn't really care too much about that stuff.

Regarding Balance: Absolutely things need to be balanced. A crate is often better than a barrel. Even if the difference is mostly inconsequential people will talk about it and argue over which side is better and it will always be a blemish on the map. If you want to make a non-symmetric map do an attack/defense/pl

Regarding comp players being aesthetically challenged asshats: Ya pretty much. A lot of comp players don't know what they're talking about and hate change. We may talk about wanting new maps and changing the meta, but do you know how much bitching I've had to deal with because we're playing steel this week? I'm excited, trying to work with differences is fun, but most would be content to play viaduct and granary until hl3 comes out. HL players and UGC players tend to be a little more map-curious which is why I like them, but there's still a lot to overcome if you want to make a good comp map. There's a lot of meta behind pushes, and the flow of comp isn't something comp players pick up on quickly themselves. So if your desire is to make a solid, balanced map for comp play then playtest that junk. Take the criticism (and ignore anything you ever read on a comp forum). Not everyone knows what they're talking about, and our preference is for balance over aesthetics (but goddam Borneo is beautiful). Rum will hook you up with smart, thoughtful testers no problem, and, as a team leader, if any one of my little piles of cancer isn't 100% gracious to actually talented people who keep this community and this game alive then you bet your ass I will personally give them the disciplinary action.

-Ike

It's tough to come up with everything in bullets but these are things:

-No stupid high platforms/roofs that you can build a sentry on. If you can noclip there, an engy can get there with a level 3 in a match.

-No long sniper sightlines that are unchecked

-No clippy areas where a soldier can wait high above a rollout area and drop on the combo.

-No annoying pits or falls that put a class out of a fight for upwards of 10 seconds if they fall in. People will bitch less if the pit was bottomless and they just died, but that's bad also. Fewer death pits pls.

-No giant windows where a defending team can see where the pushing team is coming from at all times

-Do include a mix of tight and open areas.

-If there are two ways to go, don't make them both open or chokey

-Do have 2-3 ways to get everywhere from everywhere

-Know that large objects benefit sollys and scouts, chokes benefit demomen, wide open spaces benefit snipers, large unnecessary corners benefit spies, and flat rooms benefit heavies. Keep these things balanced.

RedRumUGC said:

Comparing a crate to a barrel is huge, the crate is more protection than the barrel so it's not the same dimensions. It doesn't make sense why one side would have it when the other doesn't. You can still create big wow factors and even new gameplay mechanics if done right.

Click to expand...

That's the culture difference I was trying to point out, to a mapper it does make sense because it prevents the map from becoming visually flat. Or perhaps more specifically, it's a tool used to help distinguish BLU territory from RED territory. Granted, many props are good about providing BLU skins and RED skins without changing geometry and there's two distinct sets of textures available to help with world geometry, so it's not like it's impossible to make a symmetrical map.

I'm just pointing out that the two communities view maps in completely different ways, and when you're up at 3am detailing a map in Hammer, crates over here and barrels over there might start to seem like a good idea.

Especially oil drums with a pallet leaned up against it. Mappers love that shit.

At any rate, I'm not trying to defend the practice. Just illustrating the perspective of two different groups of people that both want the same thing (good maps).



On another note, I'm curious what competitive players think about skyboxes. I noticed a couple comments that they can be too high. What's the concern with that? I personally hate doing an explosive jump and bumping into some invisible cube, and have always felt that maps bring the skybox in too low.

Obviously there's concerns with making a map too open and allowing rocket jumps to be too powerful (and occasional sentry placement exploits), but that to me is an issue of map construction more than too much volume.