Shorter Payload Maps

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XionGaTaosenai

L1: Registered
Jun 23, 2012
27
18
I've been looking through the selection of Payload maps on this site, an I've noticed a trend: The vast majority of Payload maps that aren't multi-stage have 4 checkpoints. I've seen a few maps that go for 5 (Swiftwater, Curve, and I think I've seen a third one somewhere, but I'm not sure), and of all the maps I've looked at, Crag is the only one to have 3 points and I haven't seen any with two.

Are there any short Payload maps I've missed? That are good? Why do so many Payload maps go for 4 points anyway, is it just for the sake of tradition or is there some greater design issue I'm not seeing? 2 Points seems to work fine in Control Point based Attack/Defend (Desertion seems to have gotten a fairly good reception, and, well, I like Gorge, at least), and I see no obvious reason why a Payload map with only 2/3 points would be unfeasible.
 
Shanghai

Shanghai

aa
Jan 8, 2011
397
393
It's because cart progress can't be significantly undone. In an A/D CP map, defenders can stop an attacking push and get the point's cap timer back to zero pretty quickly, set back up, and try to fend off the next push. There's much more back-and-forth until real progress is made. In PL, the cart makes a somewhat steady march through the map. Defenders can't really reset its progress, and their best hope becomes to hold the cart where it is. Imagine it like a control point where the capture progress doesn't reset. Defenders need more chokepoints for there to be good back-and-forth fights in the map.
 
deadsource

deadsource

L3: Member
Jul 11, 2011
121
55
Shanghai said:
It's because cart progress can't be significantly undone. In an A/D CP map, defenders can stop an attacking push and get the point's cap timer back to zero pretty quickly, set back up, and try to fend off the next push. There's much more back-and-forth until real progress is made. In PL, the cart makes a somewhat steady march through the map. Defenders can't really reset its progress, and their best hope becomes to hold the cart where it is. Imagine it like a control point where the capture progress doesn't reset. Defenders need more chokepoints for there to be good back-and-forth fights in the map.
Click to expand...

So, you're saying that in order to have a fun short PL map, should it have a beginning and an ending? Or am I misunderstanding something?
 
diddutz

diddutz

L1: Registered
Dec 12, 2012
6
0
Is it only the number of points you are talking abut or are you talking about length of the track, too?

Because a payload map with 2 control points but length like say badwater would be silly imo. You could then just adopt the game-mode from waste as it would behave similar.
And a short 2cp payload map would be like a single small stage of a multi-stage payload map, which, i think, would be over too soon with certain server configs.

But you're welcome to prove me wrong.
 
Pocket

Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
aa
Nov 14, 2009
4,696
2,580
Plus, if you tried to follow the Gorge approach of simply making it harder to progress in order to stretch out the gameplay, you're liable to just make the map not fun. In a control point map, it's expected that BLU will be branching out and fighting all over the map to take out defenses to get to the single, small capture zone that they'll eventually only have to stand on for a relatively short period of time. In payload, they're expected to stick relatively close to the cart for most of the map to keep it going. They're likely to keep trying to get to the cart and getting frustrated when they keep dying.
 
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XionGaTaosenai

L1: Registered
Jun 23, 2012
27
18
I had envisioned a 2-point Payload map as being something designed for fast rounds that let teams switch often and allows stopwatch matches to take place without taking a full half-hour to play through. It may not be a completely solid idea, but I think it could be done well and is worth at least trying out once.

However, a 3-point PL map wouldn't have the same crazy problems of a 2-point one, and it was 3-point maps that actually surprised me with their scarcity. There's Crag and Haste, the latter of which doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and what else?
 
re1wind

re1wind

aa
Aug 12, 2009
644
588
Shanghai said:
It's because cart progress can't be significantly undone. In an A/D CP map, defenders can stop an attacking push and get the point's cap timer back to zero pretty quickly, set back up, and try to fend off the next push. There's much more back-and-forth until real progress is made. In PL, the cart makes a somewhat steady march through the map. Defenders can't really reset its progress, and their best hope becomes to hold the cart where it is. Imagine it like a control point where the capture progress doesn't reset. Defenders need more chokepoints for there to be good back-and-forth fights in the map.
Click to expand...


A payload that never retreats. i think PLR works like this, but i'm not certain as i haven't played PLR in years.

No idea how that would affect a map like goldrush or badwater, though. it would make pushing/defending the cart more important than just going on a killing spree, though.
 
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XionGaTaosenai

L1: Registered
Jun 23, 2012
27
18
I think he was saying that even in a normal PL game, the cart retreats too slowly to make a difference. compared to a CP map, you can't really "reverse" the progress that the attacking team has made toward the objective, which means that a shorter Payload map is harder to balance, tending to tip in favor of BLU.
 
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