Anti-capitalism, pro Icing

Terwonick · Jan 21, 2012

Fr0Z3n said:
@Terwonick, legally, at 15 you're allowed to work with proper paperwork. But socially, at 15, you shouldn't care this much about politics.

I know, but let's call it a hobby.

Sel · Jan 21, 2012

Fr0Z3n said:
@Terwonick, legally, at 15 you're allowed to work with proper paperwork. But socially, at 15, you shouldn't care this much about politics.

uhh

what

StickZer0 · Jan 21, 2012

Terwonick said:
And "crazy religious stuff" is pretty vague, I'd assume that you mean somebody who worships frogs or something, cause that's perfectly legal in the USA.

To leftwing America, "crazy religious stuff" = Religion
To rightwing America, "crazy religious stuff" = Islam

EDIT: Also at Fr0z3n, I'd say 15 is a perfectly reasonable age to start caring about politics. Just look at Jessica Ahlquist, she's 16 and has been in the news loads for her liberal secular political views

Fruity Snacks · Jan 21, 2012

Okay fine, I'm a bad american for not caring about politics as much as I guess I should. It's just dull, and boring, and I hate listening to old men and women fight over things like money.

Sel · Jan 21, 2012

Fr0Z3n said:
Okay fine, I'm a bad american for not caring about politics as much as I guess I should. It's just dull, and boring, and I hate listening to old men and women fight over things like money.

You're far from a bad person, you just live in a society where caring about those things is discouraged left right and center. It's always been that way, and it's no surprise that a lot of people are conditioned to believe that the politicians aren't worth paying attention to since they know what they're doing.

Sgt Frag · Jan 21, 2012

LeSwordfish said:
"Today we're testing the myth that a capitalist system based on continual growth can be supported indefinitely to infinite growth by a sub-infinite amount of rescources!"

*Thirty years later, when global warming has increased to the point that wall street is underwater and the london stock exchange is under ten feet of snow*

"MYTH BUSTED"

That's why we should outlaw birth control. More Slaves.

LeSwordfish · Jan 21, 2012

Agent Orange was a government initiated product, even though a private company "found" it.

Government initated it. Your dudes didn't stop making it, even when everyone else did. Capitalism in a nutshell: "This stuff is killing children. But somebody's giving us MONEY for it."

You know child labor is still a problem, right? It still happens, we just delude ourselves into thinking it doesn't. Besides, what do YOU constitute as child labor? I work at my fathers company in the summer, I'm 15, does that make it child labor?

By child labour i was referring to seven-year-olds in mines and so on. Not fifteen-year-olds in offices, but you know that.

And of course it's still a problem. (Why? Well, lets give a big round of applause to our old friend, capitalism!) That does not mean that its position as one in the past was invalid. I'm simply trying to disabuse you of the notion that there was this golden 130 years where everybody was rich and happy and swam in pools of money until those nasty socialists came along.

I don't really see a difference, please point one out.

[SERIOUS]
I'll admit, i'm no biologist. I do kinda feel that abortion is one of those big, srsbsns issues that you really shouldn't use phrases like srsbsns about. So no, i can't, and i shouldnt give you a definite line. Hell, i dunno if there is one.

But A) Try not to use such emotive language as "killing babies".
B) The difference is the woman's right. For a significant time, a foetus is a part of a woman's body. And nobody has the right to control that.

Were i in the position to choose one, i genuinely don't know what choice i would make. I'm honestly thankful that the final decision will never rest with me. But there is no situation where you will persuade me that taking the choice away from women (and placing it in the hands of, here we go again, white, middle-aged christian males, taking their advice from a book written by a deity several thousand years ago) is the right thing to do. You're arguing on semantics rather than meeting my main point.

Okay, so i'm doing that too, but for comic effect.

[/SERIOUS]

Well, seeing as that's a much more open border policy than any the others have come up with you shouldn't really be complaining.

"slandering your native country" isn't a crime in the USA so it wouldn't apply in this situation.

Ah, i'm sorry, you should have clarified that this was the USA's laws we're talking about. I'm not keen on the idea that you should have your freedom of movement restricted thanks to breaking a law that didn't apply to you at the time- (what about drinking, if i drink (legally) in the UK at age eighteen, can i not move to the US because the minimum age there is twenty-one?)- but this clarification kinda improves it.

And "crazy religious stuff" is pretty vague, I'd assume that you mean somebody who worships frogs or something, cause that's perfectly legal in the USA.

I kinda didn't want to give a specific example here, since i'm trying to avoid offending people, but i've got one now: Burqhas. In France.

In France, Burqhas (probably spelled wrong) are illegal. (or they were going to be; presume they are for the sake of the analogy) If someone religious chose to wear the burqha anyway and was arrested, would that allow them in. ANd to choose a more obvious example, what about legal systems the USA fundamentally disagrees with, such as Sharia law etc.

If it's the USA's laws you're talking about, this isn't a problem as such. I just wanted to articulate my problem with the idea better.

There's a lot of bitter people in this world, I deal with it, why not others?

Translation: Haters Gotta Hate.

The situation has shaken down pretty well for you, and those "Bitter people" or "others" you shrug off have the tiniest amount of outside awareness required to see that if life in the rest of the world still sucks, we should do something about it.

I'm going to repeat that, because it's the core of my argument, and pretty much my entire political belief system. If you have a better life than someone else, it is a simple human duty to help their life improve.

There is no attitude i find more annoying than "i've got mine, fuck you." Apart from simply failing to notice everyone else. You'll forgive me for wondering which of those categories you fall into.

I don't get what you mean by liberty, because the way you use it is confusing.

As in, the USA keeps telling the world it's great, and then acts surprised when people go and live there instead of their poor inferior countries.

I must say the same thing to you.

Leminnes · Jan 21, 2012

I just have a hard time believing Terwonick isn't a troll.

Kid, I had strong political positions when I was your age too. They were quite the opposite of your's. However, as I grow older I realize day by day things are much more complicated than they appear. The world is not Black and White. Right and Wrong are subjective, and what is best for the country is subjective and circumstantial.

The key thing to keep in mind is that not one thing is the only way to do it. Some ways are better, as is with democracy. Some things should work well in theory, but don't in practice, as with communism. But nothing is the RIGHT way to do it.

All I can say is, don't get stuck in a rut of thinking. Always keep an open mind and don't scoff off people you disagree with. Could be, very often, they have perfectly legitimate reasons to think such things. Also, don't let your parent's politics effect your own. They might be your authority figures, and I am SURE they have influenced you all your life, but don't let them run your mind. That is always your own.

On the other hand, if you're a troll: good for you. Taking opposing ideas of most people on this forum and willfully expressing them just to entice anger is really brave. Good on you.

Edit: Also, Frozen, I just want to say that it would be best to care a LITTLE bit about politics. At least get involved to change it. Don't let the day when your basic human rights are being removed be the day you decide to "care" about politics. It might be too late.

grazr · Jan 21, 2012

Leminnes said:
Some things should work well in theory, but don't in practice, as with communism. But nothing is the RIGHT way to do it.

This really reminds me of the architect Le Corbusier. A French-Swiss architect obsessed with efficiency who practically invented modern tower blocks. The idea was to solve the problem of limited land by using space in the sky, building upwards instead of outwards. Along with making it so each person had the same as their neighbour.

In theory it was exactly what was needed to solve the lack of housing, space for housing and how people were constantly envious of ones neighbours home. In practice, it was one of the biggest social failures in human history. Tower blocks were supposed to bring people together and promote respect amongst mutual peers, instead it did the exact opposite because of "the human factor".

Sel · Jan 21, 2012

Leminnes said:
Some things should work well in theory, but don't in practice, as with communism.

I never understand why people say this about Communism. We've never had a Communist society, we've had societies run by parties or people claiming to be Communists, but that's about it.

Leminnes · Jan 21, 2012

Selentic said:
I never understand why people say this about Communism. We've never had a Communist society, we've had societies run by parties or people claiming to be Communists, but that's about it.

I meant it more in the fact that, in Theory, Communism should work, but human nature refuses to allow it to. But really, that's a whole other debate.

Sel · Jan 21, 2012

Leminnes said:
I meant it more in the fact that, in Theory, Communism should work, but human nature refuses to allow it to. But really, that's a whole other debate.

From the article I linked earlier.

[SIZE=-1]
Why is it that we must choose an economic system that undermines the most decent aspects of our nature and strengthens the most inhuman? Because, we’re told, that’s just the way people are. What evidence is there of that? Look around, we’re told, at how people behave. Everywhere we look, we see greed and the pursuit of self-interest. So, the proof that these greedy, self-interested aspects of our nature are dominant is that, when forced into a system that rewards greed and self-interested behavior, people often act that way. Doesn’t that seem just a bit circular?[/SIZE]

Leminnes · Jan 21, 2012

Selentic said:
From the article I linked earlier.

It depends on whether you look at it either that Capitalism is popular because that's how human nature works or that human nature is formed by Capitalism. It really could be both but judging from the fact that Capitalism is so prevalent, I'd say it's the former. But I am no scholar, that's just what I believe.

Edit: Honestly, I think this is a discussion for later, and one that I think is very hard to "win." People feel so strongly about these things, and I think it's a bit of an error to do so. Everyone has good points on both sides and I think it's because they're both right in their own respects.

Terwonick · Jan 21, 2012

On the other hand I did read and I found a clear contradiction in the first point listed

Capitalism has given those of us in the First World lots of stuff (most of it of marginal or questionable value) in exchange for our souls, our hope for progressive politics, and the possibility of a decent future for children.

and then

Are we greedy and self-interested? Of course. At least I am, sometimes. But we also just as obviously are capable of compassion and selflessness.

We "obviously are capable of compassion and selflessness" and yet the article implies that this is clearly not the case. It's the psychology behind the matter, he says "we're greedy and self-interested, DUH" right after saying that we are partially in it for our children. I checked over the rest of the article, and I personally find it kinda hard to read because it's full of first person. This guy says we can be good people, but because of capitalism we aren't, I find that really hard to believe. In my opinion people are inherently good and will help each-other just because the other asked for it. Is that a bad thing that I think people can be responsible for themselves?

EDIT: Oh ya, just to let you know I'm positive that I haven't given away my soul... Even though I support capitalism.

Terwonick · Jan 21, 2012

EDIT: Sorry about the double-post!!!

Government initated it. Your dudes didn't stop making it, even when everyone else did. Capitalism in a nutshell: "This stuff is killing children. But somebody's giving us MONEY for it."

And how long do you think that company would have been around if it hadn't kept making it for the government? It would have been "anti-American" people would have boycotted it and it's stock would have plummeted. Wanting to survive is different than being greedy, even you can see that.

By child labour i was referring to seven-year-olds in mines and so on. Not fifteen-year-olds in offices, but you know that.

And of course it's still a problem. (Why? Well, lets give a big round of applause to our old friend, capitalism!) That does not mean that its position as one in the past was invalid. I'm simply trying to disabuse you of the notion that there was this golden 130 years where everybody was rich and happy and swam in pools of money until those nasty socialists came along.

Except your saying it happens because of capitalism, I'm saying it will happen anyway

[SERIOUS]
I'll admit, i'm no biologist. I do kinda feel that abortion is one of those big, srsbsns issues that you really shouldn't use phrases like srsbsns about. So no, i can't, and i shouldnt give you a definite line. Hell, i dunno if there is one.

But A) Try not to use such emotive language as "killing babies".
B) The difference is the woman's right. For a significant time, a foetus is a part of a woman's body. And nobody has the right to control that.

Were i in the position to choose one, i genuinely don't know what choice i would make. I'm honestly thankful that the final decision will never rest with me. But there is no situation where you will persuade me that taking the choice away from women (and placing it in the hands of, here we go again, white, middle-aged christian males, taking their advice from a book written by a deity several thousand years ago) is the right thing to do. You're arguing on semantics rather than meeting my main point.

Okay, so i'm doing that too, but for comic effect.
[/SERIOUS]

I'd just like to point out that if there were Siamese twins who each wanted the other dead, we wouldn't let them kill each-other, even though it's "their body" It's my personal belief that the same thing applies in this situation.

Ah, i'm sorry, you should have clarified that this was the USA's laws we're talking about. I'm not keen on the idea that you should have your freedom of movement restricted thanks to breaking a law that didn't apply to you at the time- (what about drinking, if i drink (legally) in the UK at age eighteen, can i not move to the US because the minimum age there is twenty-one?)- but this clarification kinda improves it.

I thought this was understood to be US laws. Because the flight from the UK to the US is 14 hours (from what I've heard anyway), this shouldn't be much of a problem because a responsible person wouldn't be choosing an airplane to get drunk on. From my understanding of the law, it's not illegal to drink, just have over .02% blood alcohol level. If your not in our borders, no problem.

I

kinda didn't want to give a specific example here, since i'm trying to avoid offending people, but i've got one now: Burqhas. In France.

In France, Burqhas (probably spelled wrong) are illegal. (or they were going to be; presume they are for the sake of the analogy) If someone religious chose to wear the burqha anyway and was arrested, would that allow them in. ANd to choose a more obvious example, what about legal systems the USA fundamentally disagrees with, such as Sharia law etc.

That first part is prohibited by the Constitution of the United States, and Sharia law doesn't apply in the US

If it's the USA's laws you're talking about, this isn't a problem as such. I just wanted to articulate my problem with the idea better.

Like I said, we would use US laws as a template for "criminal record"

Translation: Haters Gotta Hate.

Do you honestly want to bring memes into this?

The situation has shaken down pretty well for you, and those "Bitter people" or "others" you shrug off have the tiniest amount of outside awareness required to see that if life in the rest of the world still sucks, we should do something about it.

I phrased that poorly, I realize we were referencing two different types of people. I was talking about two different groups of people. For the "bitter people" one, I was talking about the type of person who didn't care about people besides themselves. For the "others" I was talking about people who complain about the "bitter people" group.

I'm going to repeat that, because it's the core of my argument, and pretty much my entire political belief system. If you have a better life than someone else, it is a simple human duty to help their life improve.

There is no attitude i find more annoying than "i've got mine, fuck you." Apart from simply failing to notice everyone else. You'll forgive me for wondering which of those categories you fall into.

I guess I can see how I've given that impression, but I think you've generalized to much. I hope you realize there will always be people who say "up yours" when you beg them for food, this is a fact. Just don't lump every American into a "we don't really care" category (and now that I'm looking back at it you didn't really do that, but you were close). America DONATES more money than all the other nations combined
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers

As in, the USA keeps telling the world it's great, and then acts surprised when people go and live there instead of their poor inferior countries.

Well I'm not, it's a pretty cool place and I enjoy hearing about other's stories and cultures. I would recommend America to EVERY person here, try it out, you won't regret it!

and NO, I am NOT trolling.

Sel · Jan 21, 2012

Terwonick said:
I support capitalism.

I'm not really seeing these contradictions, the article says that Capitalism rewards greedy self centered behavior, and as a result a lot of (not all) people behave like greedy self centered fucks.

Anyway, I'd be very curious to know why you support capitalism, especially in the face of it's letdowns which are becoming more and more obvious as time progresses. Such as it's most glaring flaw, it's assumption that infinite growth is possible, it's rewarding of greedy behavior, and the consumerist society which compels people to buy shit they don't need incessantly.

Meanwhile I'd also like you to also do a little more research on your own about Socialism, Communism, and any other alternate economic system that we could possibly adopt before Capitalism trashes our planet even further. Instead of just regurgitating what Peter Schiff, and the rest of the American MSM tell you. You've made it pretty obvious in the past you don't understand either at all, so it couldn't hurt.

Terwonick · Jan 21, 2012

I'm not really seeing these contradictions, the article says that Capitalism rewards greedy self centered behavior, and as a result a lot of (not all) people behave like greedy self centered fucks.

Right after saying that one of the reasons we adhere to it (capitalism) is a better future for our children, that's the contradiction.

Meanwhile I'd also like you to also do a little more research on your own about Socialism, Communism, and any other alternate economic system that we could possibly adopt before Capitalism trashes our planet even further.

I will do so, just for you.

Sel · Jan 21, 2012

Terwonick said:
Right after saying that one of the reasons we adhere to it (capitalism) is a better future for our children, that's the contradiction.

I don't understand. It doesn't say that capitalism offers a better future for our children, the article says it doesn't, for the aforementioned reasons. (No serious attempts and combating the effects corporate greed is having on our world (warmongering for instance) and our environment (global warming), being unsustainable, etc)

I'm not necessarily saying that these activities would be entirely prevented in another economic system, but if we created one that either punished for, or removed the benefit from negative activities, the incentive wouldn't really exist anymore.

Since you seem to have a fairly libertarian background these pieces may be of particular interest to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

grazr · Jan 21, 2012

irrespective of all these technical arguements, the one thing i don't get is the out right denial of the success of socialist policies that exist in Canada and the UK. I often look at how Americans brag about true freedom and their modern constitution in hollywood movies etc, but i don't make the connection of that with the US, but ironicly i can do to Canada.

Nobody wants to kill Canada, Canada doesn't want to kill anyone else. They have a stable economy. They have stable religious freedom. They're respected in the UN. Everything Americans like to brag about, their freedom, their liberty, etc, i see in Canada, but in no literal sense do i see in the America of today.

Is that just me?

tyler · Jan 21, 2012

Canada is just as full of nutjobs, but no one cares because Canada.

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