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This should be my first post here. Hopefully I can help out, even though I know very little about map making. I'll refer to different points as 1.1, 1.2, etc. Most of my analysis will be on the first map, as that is all I've been able to play thus far with actual teams trying to play (as opposed to just running around checking everything out).
At 1.1, the sightlines start off a bit too long. You can't see directly onto the point, but pretty much anything else is fair game. That, combined with so many potential angles of attack by BLU, makes 1.1 extremely Sniper-friendly. It also has the unfortunate effect of greatly lowering framerates, for many of my players. In some cases, especially among my friends using maxframes to get a FPS boost, their FPS dropped from 120 to less than half that coming out the front doors of the BLU spawn. I'm not quite sure how that can be helped, but it's a pretty major detriment in the initial fight right outside spawn.
Behind the high cliff on the right (from BLU's perspective), there's this little area:
Link
As an explosive class, you can wedge yourself in those rocks. It needs a bit of clipping work. Also, that raised area in the corner looks like it can be used to get some height advantage as a defender, when in reality it's behind a clip. If it's possible to make that more obvious (sheer cliff face vs. what looks like climbable rocks, small fence, etc.), it would probably be for the best.
The rest of 1.1 is good, except for a small error on the point:
Link
I'm clearly not standing on the point, yet I'm capping it.
Moving on, I figured I'd test how high the skyboxes were. This is what happened. You may want to consider lowering the skyboxes a little so that doesn't happen.
At 1.2, I noticed this doorway. I dislike the placement. The reason I disliked the sightlines on 1.1 also applies here; it's a very long sightline from that door that goes directly across the point. Spawning defenders pretty much have to pass in front of it to get anywhere. Plus, the rock next to it is somewhat exploitable, in the sense that a defending Soldier or Demo could very easily camp this door and be nigh untouchable unless a Heavy/Medic combo showed up to force them out. I dunno if that really balances it out for the defenders, since a Sniper can easily stand back away from the doorway. My suggestion would be to re-route it so that the exit is positioned next to the wooden wall. This would help balance it a little; a Sniper could still very easily camp the point, but in doing so, they have to walk out into the open.
At this point, I'd like to bring up my biggest grievance with this map. There is practically no height advantage to use as a Soldier or Demoman, power classes who excel when they manage to get that upper hand. It seems like every single potentially accessible roof in the map is blocked off by invisible walls (except this slightly-off roof at 1.2). I understand that decision somewhat, from a control standpoint (easier to make the gameplay flow as you want it to with fewer variables). It can, however, turn an evenly-matched game into a stalemate. The only way a side can break through is if they manage to out-spam the enemy, which is slow, boring, and repetitive. From my run-throughs of the latter 2 stages, these principles seem to stay the same, even though there are plenty of good rooftops that can be used effectively.
If I get a chance to play stages 2 and 3, I'll make another post with some pictures. All in all, this'll probably stay on my server for a while. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to make some big changes.
Minor edit for clarity
At 1.1, the sightlines start off a bit too long. You can't see directly onto the point, but pretty much anything else is fair game. That, combined with so many potential angles of attack by BLU, makes 1.1 extremely Sniper-friendly. It also has the unfortunate effect of greatly lowering framerates, for many of my players. In some cases, especially among my friends using maxframes to get a FPS boost, their FPS dropped from 120 to less than half that coming out the front doors of the BLU spawn. I'm not quite sure how that can be helped, but it's a pretty major detriment in the initial fight right outside spawn.
Behind the high cliff on the right (from BLU's perspective), there's this little area:
Link
As an explosive class, you can wedge yourself in those rocks. It needs a bit of clipping work. Also, that raised area in the corner looks like it can be used to get some height advantage as a defender, when in reality it's behind a clip. If it's possible to make that more obvious (sheer cliff face vs. what looks like climbable rocks, small fence, etc.), it would probably be for the best.
The rest of 1.1 is good, except for a small error on the point:
Link
I'm clearly not standing on the point, yet I'm capping it.
Moving on, I figured I'd test how high the skyboxes were. This is what happened. You may want to consider lowering the skyboxes a little so that doesn't happen.
At 1.2, I noticed this doorway. I dislike the placement. The reason I disliked the sightlines on 1.1 also applies here; it's a very long sightline from that door that goes directly across the point. Spawning defenders pretty much have to pass in front of it to get anywhere. Plus, the rock next to it is somewhat exploitable, in the sense that a defending Soldier or Demo could very easily camp this door and be nigh untouchable unless a Heavy/Medic combo showed up to force them out. I dunno if that really balances it out for the defenders, since a Sniper can easily stand back away from the doorway. My suggestion would be to re-route it so that the exit is positioned next to the wooden wall. This would help balance it a little; a Sniper could still very easily camp the point, but in doing so, they have to walk out into the open.
At this point, I'd like to bring up my biggest grievance with this map. There is practically no height advantage to use as a Soldier or Demoman, power classes who excel when they manage to get that upper hand. It seems like every single potentially accessible roof in the map is blocked off by invisible walls (except this slightly-off roof at 1.2). I understand that decision somewhat, from a control standpoint (easier to make the gameplay flow as you want it to with fewer variables). It can, however, turn an evenly-matched game into a stalemate. The only way a side can break through is if they manage to out-spam the enemy, which is slow, boring, and repetitive. From my run-throughs of the latter 2 stages, these principles seem to stay the same, even though there are plenty of good rooftops that can be used effectively.
If I get a chance to play stages 2 and 3, I'll make another post with some pictures. All in all, this'll probably stay on my server for a while. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to make some big changes.
Minor edit for clarity
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I think this is caused by hitboxes (Or something, i forgot if it was exactly this) and can't be fixed, Jonah's Crossroads had same issue and there was nothing he could do.
I'm going to have an event tomorrow for balance testing, I'll be tempting players to come into and stay on the servers with giftbombs, here's how this will work:
Tomorrow, the event will start, as soon as the server fills up to maximum, I'll start a timer to 25 minutes, if the server stays full, I will drop the first giftbomb. After that I will start another timer for another 50 minutes, if the server stays full I will drop the second.
Why am I doing this? Because full server testing is imperative to the success of the map and if I have to spend some money to get a full server, I don't mind doing it. If you want to stay long I'll love you forever, and I'll probably start giving out metal from my inventory by means of lottery for the people who stay even longer.
Please, this is not an endurance testing. I'm not asking people stay for 3-5 hours. I know people get tired and start playing sloppy after long periods of time. I'm asking for a long, extended solid playtest, with fresh players, good team balance (so if they become unbalanced we'll use the new plugin Rav installed).
If you want to contribute lottery items toward the end, let me know.
Tomorrow, the event will start, as soon as the server fills up to maximum, I'll start a timer to 25 minutes, if the server stays full, I will drop the first giftbomb. After that I will start another timer for another 50 minutes, if the server stays full I will drop the second.
Why am I doing this? Because full server testing is imperative to the success of the map and if I have to spend some money to get a full server, I don't mind doing it. If you want to stay long I'll love you forever, and I'll probably start giving out metal from my inventory by means of lottery for the people who stay even longer.
Please, this is not an endurance testing. I'm not asking people stay for 3-5 hours. I know people get tired and start playing sloppy after long periods of time. I'm asking for a long, extended solid playtest, with fresh players, good team balance (so if they become unbalanced we'll use the new plugin Rav installed).
If you want to contribute lottery items toward the end, let me know.
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Thanks to all those who participated in the extended playtest, and the many many rounds of b2_test1 played on 2f2f this weekend.
Beta 3 Out now!
Other downloads:
.bz2
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/cp_zinkenite_b3a.bsp.bz2
or .zip:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/cp_zinkenite_b3a.zip
Beta 3
_________________
Based on many playtests in the public realm, I have changed the spawn times from b2 to b3 as shown to be mostly successful from beta2_test1. This change turns respawn waves from blu 3, red 6, to a more dustbowl standard of blu 2, red 9 (for reference, dustbowl is blu 2, red 10). Our win ratios in all the alpha tests at TF2Maps.net proved to be successful in each individual stage that was tested--but failed in the fact that our testing servers were rarely completely full. An ideal 'full server' effect shows that dustbowl has it right, and I hope these changes in respawnwave times will satisfy most of the complaints about map balance, and the extreme difficulty for blu to take 3-3.
Other changes include:
*much more signage
*clipping fixes
*moved the resupply cabinets at red's 3-3 further back
*reduced lightmap scale in parts of the map (filesize)
*disabled the intro-camera after 1-2 is taken (shows cp 1-1).
*opened the sniper window in the building at 2-1 by popular request
*filled in the deathpit between 2-1 and 2-2 (sorry if you liked it)
*clipped off the detail island at the death pit between 3-1 and 3-2
*re-arrangement/assignment of health and ammo pickups on stage 1
*removal of the handrails at 3-2 above the point
*Zinkenite Laser now animates to point upward and fires a laser when red successfully holds 3-3.
As always, the full changelog can be read here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/zig/zig_changelog.txt
Beta 3 Out now!
Other downloads:
.bz2
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/cp_zinkenite_b3a.bsp.bz2
or .zip:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/cp_zinkenite_b3a.zip
Beta 3
_________________
Based on many playtests in the public realm, I have changed the spawn times from b2 to b3 as shown to be mostly successful from beta2_test1. This change turns respawn waves from blu 3, red 6, to a more dustbowl standard of blu 2, red 9 (for reference, dustbowl is blu 2, red 10). Our win ratios in all the alpha tests at TF2Maps.net proved to be successful in each individual stage that was tested--but failed in the fact that our testing servers were rarely completely full. An ideal 'full server' effect shows that dustbowl has it right, and I hope these changes in respawnwave times will satisfy most of the complaints about map balance, and the extreme difficulty for blu to take 3-3.
Other changes include:
*much more signage
*clipping fixes
*moved the resupply cabinets at red's 3-3 further back
*reduced lightmap scale in parts of the map (filesize)
*disabled the intro-camera after 1-2 is taken (shows cp 1-1).
*opened the sniper window in the building at 2-1 by popular request
*filled in the deathpit between 2-1 and 2-2 (sorry if you liked it)
*clipped off the detail island at the death pit between 3-1 and 3-2
*re-arrangement/assignment of health and ammo pickups on stage 1
*removal of the handrails at 3-2 above the point
*Zinkenite Laser now animates to point upward and fires a laser when red successfully holds 3-3.
As always, the full changelog can be read here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/zig/zig_changelog.txt
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I have had a lot of time to think about the map overall and to play the map in a lot of places and hear from communities about the map. As sad as I am to realize I am going to throw away a lot of spent time and earned headache, I feel the weakest part of the map is the first stage. It was good for what it was and served its purpose in the beginning, but the more and more I play the more I really dislike it.
I think I'm going to be revising the first stage in a major way, I can't say how much of it will be recognizable.
If you have thoughts on this, I'd like to hear from you.
I think I'm going to be revising the first stage in a major way, I can't say how much of it will be recognizable.
If you have thoughts on this, I'd like to hear from you.
The only problems with the first stage are A) the sniper friendly sightlines which have been mentioned since alpha; and B) the fact that it was overbalanced for the contest. Stage 1 is easily the most difficult stage to complete for BLU, muchly because it feels to have been balanced as a stand alone piece of the map, which initially it was. The success rate for BLU should be like 75%+ but instead it feels more like 50/50, whilst i've never seen stages 2 or 3 successfully defended at all.
Secondary issues may include that the high path for BLU has no cover and very little space to dodge projectile weapons or strafe-dodge sniper fire.
Stage 1 needs to be easier to complete, whilst stages 2 and 3 need to be progressively harder.
How can this be achieved?
Make the caves bigger and/or more obvious to BLU.
Reduce sightlines and/or increase cover (rocks/wooden sheets).
This can be done without entirely re-doing the stage.
Aesthetically my advice is the same as it was when it reached beta. Much of the detail is in areas nobody looks at during gameplay. Cliff tops outside of the FoV or visible momentarily at various out of bounds areas.
The map is very pretty, but it's like a pair of beautiful tits covered by a biddy knitted christmas cardigan.
Secondary issues may include that the high path for BLU has no cover and very little space to dodge projectile weapons or strafe-dodge sniper fire.
Stage 1 needs to be easier to complete, whilst stages 2 and 3 need to be progressively harder.
How can this be achieved?
Make the caves bigger and/or more obvious to BLU.
Reduce sightlines and/or increase cover (rocks/wooden sheets).
This can be done without entirely re-doing the stage.
Aesthetically my advice is the same as it was when it reached beta. Much of the detail is in areas nobody looks at during gameplay. Cliff tops outside of the FoV or visible momentarily at various out of bounds areas.
The map is very pretty, but it's like a pair of beautiful tits covered by a biddy knitted christmas cardigan.
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what you need to do right now is decide when to stop. I've really only seen you make 1 map before this, so this (to me) seems like a big project.
Someone once told me half of mapping is learning when a project needs to be done. You take what you have, wrap it up, toss on a pretty bow, and call it done. Then you move on with what you've learned and make something even better. Personally, I think that with Zink, you have an extremely pretty package with a very large bow (like, one of the velvet red ones). I'd say, finish up whet you have, try and take what you have and make it he best it can be without rebuilding, then move on to a new project (Save hassle, keep the theme! Payload, or something).
As always, these are my opinions. If you want to rebuild and redetail stage 1, then I support that and will be at the tests to give feedback as much as I can. But if you decide to take what you got and leave with what you have, then I support that too.
Someone once told me half of mapping is learning when a project needs to be done. You take what you have, wrap it up, toss on a pretty bow, and call it done. Then you move on with what you've learned and make something even better. Personally, I think that with Zink, you have an extremely pretty package with a very large bow (like, one of the velvet red ones). I'd say, finish up whet you have, try and take what you have and make it he best it can be without rebuilding, then move on to a new project (Save hassle, keep the theme! Payload, or something).
As always, these are my opinions. If you want to rebuild and redetail stage 1, then I support that and will be at the tests to give feedback as much as I can. But if you decide to take what you got and leave with what you have, then I support that too.
Grazr, you just don't like sightlines, no matter how big or small they are. You are the only person making a very big deal out of it. And the success rate for blu has almost always been 75% for the first stage, it doesn't matter how you 'felt' about it.
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stage 1 is so much fun though, don't scrap it 
i guess it's a bit too difficult, perhaps more cover for the sightline in between 1st cap and 2nd cap, mainly because you can't flank the sightline as well when you have to cross the sightline to get to that one side path. that way there's 2 good ways to flank. not really sure about that though....
maybe a silly idea would be a ramp up to the platform + shack on the opposite of red spawn.
feel like most the problem is 1-1 rather than 1-2 though...
i agree the sightlines are fine, it is not the problem. sightlines, when used well, make maps hella more fun. only if they are contained + flankable.
i guess it's a bit too difficult, perhaps more cover for the sightline in between 1st cap and 2nd cap, mainly because you can't flank the sightline as well when you have to cross the sightline to get to that one side path. that way there's 2 good ways to flank. not really sure about that though....
maybe a silly idea would be a ramp up to the platform + shack on the opposite of red spawn.
feel like most the problem is 1-1 rather than 1-2 though...
i agree the sightlines are fine, it is not the problem. sightlines, when used well, make maps hella more fun. only if they are contained + flankable.
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I don't see a reason why he shouldn't fix major problems, that is not being perfectionist and not knowing where to stop, that is pretty much what mapping for tf2 is about.
It is not like he is making over 25 versions of the same stage and eventually getting massive burnout. ( )
It is not like he is making over 25 versions of the same stage and eventually getting massive burnout. (
)
I don't like sightlines? I've said it before but so have so many other people if you go back through your existing thread history. It's not an isolated "feeling". I remember you shooting down some of my previous anti-sightline suggestions for stage 1 and let you have your artistic license only later to realise they'd already been suggested by other people and shot down then too. How many times does it need to be said before you'll listen?
I don't wanna make a big deal out of it so i'll only say it once this time. I only brought it up again because other, new people have too; and i think you should start to listen.
Although ultimately if you re-work the entire stage the discussion is pointless... I just don't see why you're so defencive about it and call "isolated incidents" on something that's been reported multiple times by multiple individuals, over an extended period of time.
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I'm defensive about it because you keep bringing up a non-issue and behaving as though your opinion is always correct. If I've said anything to myself a thousand times it's "Thank grazr for his advice but don't you dare tell him you disagree with him unless you want a 2 page argument over something that should simply be an opinion". This is a lesson I should have really stuck with, don't know why I made a previous mistake.
I didn't realise these were my isolated opinions:
If i repeat myself it's because i feel like people have misunderstood, not because i feel i am right. Also i wont apologise for being opinionated. My being opinionated is one of the things that has kept the forum mapping section active for as much and long as it has been (and people seem to appreciate that fact so i'll continue). Sometimes i'm mistaken, i'm not egotistical enough to believe myself infallable, but i also realise the value of discussion. Even if some people have already made their minds up from the very beginning; if eventually it helps, it was worth it.
If i repeat myself it's because i feel like people have misunderstood, not because i feel i am right. Also i wont apologise for being opinionated. My being opinionated is one of the things that has kept the forum mapping section active for as much and long as it has been (and people seem to appreciate that fact so i'll continue). Sometimes i'm mistaken, i'm not egotistical enough to believe myself infallable, but i also realise the value of discussion. Even if some people have already made their minds up from the very beginning; if eventually it helps, it was worth it.
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- Jul 22, 2009
- 1,874
- 1,257
just be lazy, up the spawntime for red, cut it for blu, boom, stage 1 fixed
a lot of fun was had on that stage, what exactly is that you hate about it? could it be that, since it was made way before stage 2 and 3, was played in asymmetry and as first stage is still the most often played, you're simply a bit sick of it?
a lot of fun was had on that stage, what exactly is that you hate about it? could it be that, since it was made way before stage 2 and 3, was played in asymmetry and as first stage is still the most often played, you're simply a bit sick of it?
Few bits and bobs. Mostly tiny niggles
Stage 2, Cap B:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066370598/F671D54FBB9C92510975931A67124CF8C2BBCF5B/
Seem to be able to cap it without being stood on it.
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066369515/238B3A1B20B558251028ABD2904FBEA5E714B53A/
This set of shelves isn't playerclipped.
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066368316/2124CD32FE71DE7866934D64F86FAA6BE7D54AFF/
Walking into red's spawn caused noticeable performance degradation.
Stage 3: outside spawn room
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066367039/0E685B2D1C1A26909F9EB0F6787379A154AD720E/
This wall isn't playerclipped at all,
Stage 3, Cap C:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/76561197997585444/screenshot/559795187066364395/?tab=public
Aesthetic thing this time. In just about everywhere else in this map, green grass only appears in out-of-bounds areas, except for this one bit. Would it not make sense to have this grey rock like the other playable areas?
Otherwise though, this map's a work of art.
Stage 2, Cap B:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066370598/F671D54FBB9C92510975931A67124CF8C2BBCF5B/
Seem to be able to cap it without being stood on it.
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066369515/238B3A1B20B558251028ABD2904FBEA5E714B53A/
This set of shelves isn't playerclipped.
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066368316/2124CD32FE71DE7866934D64F86FAA6BE7D54AFF/
Walking into red's spawn caused noticeable performance degradation.
Stage 3: outside spawn room
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559795187066367039/0E685B2D1C1A26909F9EB0F6787379A154AD720E/
This wall isn't playerclipped at all,
Stage 3, Cap C:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/76561197997585444/screenshot/559795187066364395/?tab=public
Aesthetic thing this time. In just about everywhere else in this map, green grass only appears in out-of-bounds areas, except for this one bit. Would it not make sense to have this grey rock like the other playable areas?
Otherwise though, this map's a work of art.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/UEAKCrash/screenshot/614966189835927304?tab=public
Got stuck on this rock
Got stuck on this rock
I don't know if you still monitor this thread but could I feature this map on www.tf2tightrope.com please? (In the same way swiftwater was featured)
Just checking! Thanks!
Just checking! Thanks!