Changes to Yukon and Granary. Why?

Grup

L1: Registered
Oct 29, 2009
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Sorry if this is somewhere else and I've missed it, but ...

There was a change to Yukon. The center control point was moved up vertically to the bridge from where it was originally. Question: do we know why? Has Valve said anything? If anyone from Valve is lurking, I'd love to know.

I'm sort of interested to know how moving it up makes it a better map, but, I'm even more interested to know what the process was that Valve used to actually go ahead and make the change.

For instance, did it go something like this:

Valve Employee #1: Dude, I was playing Yukon last night after work just for fun, and I was thinking it would be better if that center control point was up on the bridge above where it currently is.

Valve Employee #2: Yeah, that would be way cool. Let's do it!

Or was it more like this:

Valve Employee #1: Dude. I was analyzing some map log files and I noticed a serious problem with the center point on Yukon. Look at this spreadsheet.

Valve Employee #2: Wow! That is serious. With a -50% hold ratio it seems that this point is too hard to hold, which ... hold on, let me do the calculation ... which leads to a 200% rage quit to fun ratio. Also, look at this column ... soldiers are way over powered on this point. Let's try moving the control point up vertically to the bridge, get some play testing done, and run some stats on that. Let's try to have a fix for this before Robin sees these numbers.


Same question about Granary. A change was made to add an additional exit from the garage (hope that is what it is called) on that ramp.


I guess I'm even more curious about Granary than Yukon. As that map has been around for quite a while (was it one of the originals?). What would cause them to make a change at this point after it has been around for so long.
 

h3r1n6

L4: Comfortable Member
Sep 7, 2009
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I am not 100% sure how it happened, but this should be the explanation:
Comp players have been pushing for changes like that, and they were easy to implement, so they changed them. That Granary change was in the Beta for a while before it came into the actual game.


The Granary change doesn't make that much of a difference actually. With the old Yukon, pushing on the point below gave your team a huge disadvantage, and will just get your players spammed to death. This makes the midfight last way too long. It is better now, but the midfight is still not good in my eyes.
 
Last edited:
Feb 14, 2008
1,051
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I suspect it was more like

Mangy: Hey Yukon was more fun and interesting when the Control Point was on a bridge, let's try that!

Valve didn't make Yukon, though I guess it's a good sign you think they did. Though I do know Mangy likes statistics and stuff.

Hey Mangy, what was your thought process?
 

littleedge

L1111: Clipping Guru
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Mar 2, 2009
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Yukon was made by our very own MangyCarface. Not Valve. He went on vacation though. I can tell you that, if memory serves me right, there was a version of the map where the point was on the bridge back when he was still testing it with us and 2F2F and other communities.

Granary was changed probably because the mapper felt like it. Dave Riller, one of the level designers at Valve, must ahve felt the need to revisit the map. It had been put into the TF2Beta, and nobody complained, so he kept work on it and released it into the game.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
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Sep 5, 2010
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I suspect it was more like



Valve didn't make Yukon, though I guess it's a good sign you think they did. Though I do know Mangy likes statistics and stuff.

Hey Mangy, what was your thought process?

Mangy's on "VAYKAY" so don't expect something too soon...

But I assume that Mangy got feedback from people here, and other community members about it, and though it wise to move.
 

Grup

L1: Registered
Oct 29, 2009
19
1
Valve didn't make Yukon, though I guess it's a good sign you think they did.

Actually, I was aware that it was a community map. That doesn't necessarily mean the original creator made those changes. (Or does it?) I wasn't making an assumption either way.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
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Sep 5, 2010
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Actually, I was aware that it was a community map. That doesn't necessarily mean the original creator made those changes. (Or does it?) I wasn't making an assumption either way.

Valve won't change a map unless the author gives them permission to, or unless its something very serious that needs to be done immediatly.

Mostly, Community contributed maps get changed by the original authors though.
 

Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
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Jun 9, 2009
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Mangy did make the changes, although he hasn't explained why.

EDIT: :O he must've predicted this question and that is why he made this thread!

Granary was changed because that area was pretty bad for attackers; the low door focused a lot of spam and made the game slow down quite often at that point.

Also: holy shit frozen your sig
 
Mar 23, 2010
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lol if someone made a map like the 2nd quote, that'd be insane and wouldn't work. "mapping is an art, not a science" blah blah blah
 
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Trotim

aa
Jul 14, 2009
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lol if someone made a map like the 2nd quote, that'd be insane and wouldn't work. "mapping is an art, not a science" blah blah blah

but number crunching and empirical analysis can still help you a lot when fine tuning stuff, I mean have you SEEN mangy's pdf

but yeah that's only for spawn times and getting a general idea of death hotspots, no point in anything more specific than that
 
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StickZer0

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Nov 25, 2008
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I heard that while it was in development, the point jumped between being on the bridge and under it quite a few times. Some of my comp friends were quite disappointed when it was released with the cap under the bridge, they'd preferred on it.
Guess Mangy just saw the need to change it back, then