Crits: On or Off?

Crits!

  • Turn random criticals on

    Votes: 36 48.0%
  • Turn random criticals off

    Votes: 32 42.7%
  • I don't have an opinion and shouldn't be voting in this poll

    Votes: 7 9.3%

  • Total voters
    75

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
21/22 is not a deadlock, one side is clearly ahead.



I'm not aware of any culture where a 2.2% (rounded up) difference is considered a winning majority. You wouldn't pass a bill on this percentage, you wouldn't pass a law on this percentage and you wouldn't create a parlaiment with this percentage advantage. I'm disinclined to accept 2.15% advantage as "headway".
 
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A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
aa
Nov 2, 2007
4,775
7,670
Was anything ever changed since the last time we had this discussion? If not... all my previous statements still stand. (despite me not playing anymore)
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
Was anything ever changed since the last time we had this discussion? If not... all my previous statements still stand. (despite me not playing anymore)

We're discussing adding map specific configs added per event or interchangable configs (2 main configurations) done live per map by (probably rcon) admins.

Since hopefully we'll cater both audiences the arguement is merely divulging into a matter of perspective regarding the principle of critical hits and their place in map testing.

Since we'll be catering for both sides of the arguement which is beneficial for both sides of a 50/50 split (52.1/47.9 if you're pedantic) any further arguement is merely a matter of principal.
 
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MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
Really doesn't matter how low the difference is. Its flawed when the lower side automatically wins because the higher side wasn't high enough.

And for the record, im not using majority in the sense of one side / total. Just a direct comparison. Whichever side comes out higher is what it should be changed to, as that reflects what most people want.

And yes, this is entirely a matter of principle.
 
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gamemaster1996

L13: Stunning Member
Sep 30, 2009
1,064
134
Yes. IT's ment to be in the game or it wont have been put there. Therefore we should stay with it.

@thepostafterthisone

Yes it has changed alot but still crits are crits. I agree it's changed alot but it doesnt mean take away crits. I rarely get them anyway.
 
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Jan 20, 2010
1,317
902
Can we just go with the individual map configs, because that really seems to be a happy medium.


Yes. IT's ment to bee in the game or it wont have been put there.

This makes no sense. They have been in the game since the beginning, this is true. However, the game has change A LOT since it first released and random crits, I do not believe, are not necessary at all anymore.

Anyway, I not really sure what we're debating about anymore. I just think we should do the map configs thing.
 

Terr

Cranky Coder
aa
Jul 31, 2009
1,590
410
I'm not aware of any culture where a 2.2% (rounded up) difference is considered a winning majority.

.
.
.

So you are unfamiliar with the culture of virtually any nation with democratic elections on the face of the planet? (Runoff voting rounds notwithstanding.)
 

Trotim

aa
Jul 14, 2009
1,195
1,045
.
.
.

So you are unfamiliar with the culture of virtually any nation with democratic elections on the face of the planet? (Runoff voting rounds notwithstanding.)

Pure majority rule is the dumbest voting system ever. Yeah a lot of democratic elections use them but they're still dumb and they get even dumber when instead of a million people you only have like fifty.

someone didn't log on so we have the majority STOP THE VOTE
 

Sergis

L666: ])oo]v[
aa
Jul 22, 2009
1,874
1,257
Pure majority rule is the dumbest voting system ever. Yeah a lot of democratic elections use them but they're still dumb and they get even dumber when instead of a million people you only have like fifty.

someone didn't log on so we have the majority STOP THE VOTE

I agree. Let's wait until every single TF2maps member has voted.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
...So you are unfamiliar with the culture of virtually any nation with democratic elections on the face of the planet? (Runoff voting rounds notwithstanding.)

Plurality is not majority rule.

It is different here because we're literally dealing with 2 options. If this were a referendum we'd be forced to make an absolute majority decision because we couldn't possibly get the vote of all +10,000 members.
 
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Terr

Cranky Coder
aa
Jul 31, 2009
1,590
410
Pure majority rule is the dumbest voting system ever.

So you just keep having another voting-day for two candidates over and over and over until one candidate gets something like a supermajority like 2/3rds of the vote instead? Good luck with that!

Plurality is not majority rule.
While technically true, I don't see how it relates to your previous comments. I reiterate: Margins of only one or two percent regularly determine decisions by voters and legislators all over the world.
 
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Trotim

aa
Jul 14, 2009
1,195
1,045
So you just keep having another voting-day for two candidates over and over and over until one candidate gets something like a supermajority like 2/3rds of the vote instead? Good luck with that!

when neither candidate has a majority they're both bad, or you just use both

making it depend on the votes of a random guy is very stupid (and making big decisions depend on votes of random guys in general is stupid also)
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
and making big decisions depend on votes of random guys in general is stupid also

Yes, clearly a smart decision should be made based on one person's arbitrary choice and never be changed despite a reasonable lead in preference for the other side.

I really don't see what the big issue is here, yes configs will likely be made, it really doesn't effect this decision, this is selecting the default. What needs to be done is set an end date for the poll, and on that date the leading choice is made the default. If upon doing this people suddenly decide its terrible, just make another poll, set an end date and repeat.

Its not like turning it on and off requires sweeping changes, a single number needs to be changed.
 
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grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
...and never be changed despite a reasonable lead in preference for the other side.

A 1 person lead out of 43 people is not a reasonable lead. That was the arguement being made.

I really don't see what the big issue is here, yes configs will likely be made, it really doesn't effect this decision, this is selecting the default. What needs to be done is set an end date for the poll, and on that date the leading choice is made the default. If upon doing this people suddenly decide its terrible, just make another poll, set an end date and repeat.

Dual configs will be made which can be applied on the fly in game by admins, or admins can choose to make map specific configs for gamedays. The debate for either/or being chosen over the other ended several pages back and the poll affecting the decision for change is actually redundant as we're catering for both sides. The arguement about the principle of the config not being changed simply carried on because there were 1 or 2 people more who wanted crits and felt this was what should have been in place and are hurt that despite their "majority" nothing changed before and nothing was likely to change again.

Whilst i can see that 1 or 2 more votes would warrant a change the majority of the admins felt that this config was beneficial to the community and we also have to make decisions on behalf of those not able to vote. It's difficult when the difference in opinion sways by 5-10% and you all demand change even though an equal amount of people are apposed.
 
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MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
A 1 person lead out of 43 people is not a reasonable lead. That was the arguement being made.

When I comment i base it on the current status of the poll, not the previous status, probably should have used >10% like I planned instead of reasonable. <_< (though I never saw the poll at a point where there was a one person difference, 2 yes, not 1).

Dual configs will be made which can be applied on the fly in game by admins, or admins can choose to make map specific configs for gamedays. The debate for either/or being chosen over the other ended several pages back and the poll affecting the decision for change is actually redundant as we're catering for both sides.

To clarify, I realize gamedays and "formal" testing events have been settled, yes, give the mapper the choice.
But as I said, the defaults are still undecided. Obviously making a map specific config for every single map on the server is a complete pain in the ass, so when unspecified it should default to the side most prefer. Most of the time this will be people playing simply for the sake of playing, so the supposed balance no crits creates is not required and it becomes a simple matter of opinion. In which case following a popular vote makes sense.

Whilst i can see that 1 or 2 more votes would warrant a change the majority of the admins felt that this config was beneficial to the community and we also have to make decisions on behalf of those not able to vote. It's difficult when the difference in opinion sways by 5-10% and you all demand change even though an equal amount of people are apposed.

Once again, x != x + 10...
...
...had to

I'm not blatantly demanding that whichever option is ahead is forced on everyone. Just that when people aren't testing the game is played how the majority like it.

...And I was using the last poll as an example as well, if someone doesn't vote in 6 months they likely don't care all that much.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
Maybe i should also clarify how the configs would work. There would be no primary config, there would be config 1 and config 2. If someone doesn't change the config back after an event then that config would remain in affect until it is changed. There would be no default, only the 2 configs being voted in and out as required. Adding alternative configs would mean that people have the powers to change the config when they need it. The responsibility of running the correct config lies in the individual changing the config at the start and end of an event.

Whether or not we allow donators this privilage is something i'll have to talk to DrP about. Playstuff limit this feature to rcon. This is something we need to think about, though there is usaully an admin present to swap out the config, even if they have to do it through the console quickly.

EDIT: As it stands crits are on on the US and there are 2 interchangable configs accessible by admins with z access. This probably means that at the moment this only applies to rcon admins as these things are run through the site and i am unaware of donator admin permission levels (permissions can be customised anyway). I'll see what i can do at a later date and see how this config re-writer works for us.
 
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