Crits: On or Off?
- Thread starter tyler
- Start date
Leminnes
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- Jan 20, 2010
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But he said "I like". He was being subjective on purpose. This poll is about what people like, not what is objective. They are all valid. You saying they are not valid is what is invalid.
Trotim
aa
- Jul 14, 2009
- 1,195
- 1,045
how was that trolling
telling me off for suggesting an actual solution past the given choices and then jumping on the wagon once the mighty grazr mentions it was just not very nice >:
- Jul 31, 2009
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Crits do have a unique affect on map design, they don't only add "noise".
- They affect distance considerations. Critical hits have no falloff. By adding random crits, many classes become potentially more effective at range. (The sniper doesn't benefit.)
- They make areas where enemies are tightly-bunched much more potentially deadly.
- It changes spy play: Melee attacks have heightened crit chance, while the Spy has no random melee crits.
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I wasn't telling you off, I was telling you that you need to vote within the poll because before that it just wasn't an option. So don't vote "On" if it comes with the qualifier "at mapper request" because that isn't this
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3% crit chance to be more effective at range is not something i consider a quality arguement and i have already considered and mentioned heightened melee crits. People don't run into a base assuming that a crit will wipe a large group of tightly packed player's and that's why it's so annoying/disruptive when it does. A crit can prevent you from seeing how a map would play out 97%(24 players) of the time. So yes crits can be fun for many public players but they slow map development, which is what this community is about.
People seem to think that testing default is what's best because that is how the map will be played in the end but when most people only test a couple times before releasing another version of their map crits become an issue. We don't know how Valve test their maps but we can be sure to presume they get more testing done than any individual here. We have to work with what we have, limited gameday slots and below average player count-impromptu's. Even including testing from other communities the testing pool is limited and crits change the results of a map's win ratio. If you test your map more than 100 times per version then great you can squeeze out the anomolies but the reality is that doesn't happen and most people will playtest 5-10 times per version where a crit from any individual player can throw your balance results and lead you to invalid conclusions. Assuming a crit didn't happen or assuming the results to be the opposite from the results of the crit is fine in theory but 3 dimensional combat has more variables than that. With crits off none of this is an issue. Combat happens the way it was planned and when the map is balanced you can leave crits to progressing public play on your RC.
TL;DR:
A crit going off doesn't tell you anything beneficial about your map and as such should be excluded from the map development process.
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- Aug 11, 2008
- 947
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Me when crits happen:
"!$&!@*@ HEAVIES KILLING ME FROM HALFWAY ACROSS THE MAP WITH THAT SPRAY AND/OR THAT CRIT ROCKET THAT I DIDN'T SEEE OR CRIT ROLLER AAAAAAAAAAAAA"
And crits aren't exciting when I get them, people just complain I got lucky and I'm like "your positioning sucked, I would have killed you even if you got crits".
I dunno, I just don't enjoy them.
"!$&!@*@ HEAVIES KILLING ME FROM HALFWAY ACROSS THE MAP WITH THAT SPRAY AND/OR THAT CRIT ROCKET THAT I DIDN'T SEEE OR CRIT ROLLER AAAAAAAAAAAAA"
And crits aren't exciting when I get them, people just complain I got lucky and I'm like "your positioning sucked, I would have killed you even if you got crits".
I dunno, I just don't enjoy them.
MrAlBobo
L13: Stunning Member
- Feb 20, 2008
- 1,059
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Felt like quoting what I said the last time this came up.
Crits being turned off is broken and will remain broken until things like that are accounted for. Based on a previous (and temporary) update valve seems to think that "no crits" and "-25% damage" are an equal trade-off. So, sure, turn crits off, just make every melee weapon without the "no crits" clause do an extra 25% damage.
Crits being turned off is broken and will remain broken until things like that are accounted for. Based on a previous (and temporary) update valve seems to think that "no crits" and "-25% damage" are an equal trade-off. So, sure, turn crits off, just make every melee weapon without the "no crits" clause do an extra 25% damage.
Real men play with crits on
I personally don't like crits when they happen, but the fact of the matter is that most regular "pub" TF2 servers run with default crit / damage spread settings which means that authors would get better feedback (slightly) with crits turned on.
Explain why crits result in better feedback when they create balance anomolies.
As that is how pub servers usually roll, most of these maps are begin made for pubs, i want to know how much crits and demospam effect some area of map for example, hence i voted yes.
Also because crits are fun (Don't punch me Prestige) and they have no any negatives on testing, remember Playstuff tests we had when US and EU was broken month ago, those crits actually help me and few others find some routes that could be easily locked down with spam and areas that should be easier to go trough.
I keep hearing "because pub servers do it". But as i said, we're developing maps, not playing RC's where crits actually contribute to gameplay by breaking stalemates on a readily balanced map. Crits work fine on balanced finished maps or if you're getting considerably more testing than your average map developer and can ignore their affects on results. But we're talking about impromptu's with low player counts and gamedays where more than 50% of the maps come and go with the wind.
Yes your maps are made for pubs but we don't have the crits off to fuck with you. Crits work in a tested environment, not a testing one (where you have to test more in order to weed out the random steam rolls made by crits that are easily avoidable by having them off).
A spammy choke is a spammy choke whether crits are involved or not doesn't change that.
If someone can actually tell me how crits contribute to map testing besides melee fights i'm not inclined to change my opinion. MrAlbobo made a valid point but unfortunately that's weapon balance related and the affects on map testing might be considered negligable assuming weapons with no crit de-buffs are even being used in the testing.
It's still a deadlock at 21/22 and i'll try and get a setup where we can change configs on the fly.
Yes your maps are made for pubs but we don't have the crits off to fuck with you. Crits work in a tested environment, not a testing one (where you have to test more in order to weed out the random steam rolls made by crits that are easily avoidable by having them off).
A spammy choke is a spammy choke whether crits are involved or not doesn't change that.
If someone can actually tell me how crits contribute to map testing besides melee fights i'm not inclined to change my opinion. MrAlbobo made a valid point but unfortunately that's weapon balance related and the affects on map testing might be considered negligable assuming weapons with no crit de-buffs are even being used in the testing.
It's still a deadlock at 21/22 and i'll try and get a setup where we can change configs on the fly.
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- Apr 29, 2008
- 1,068
- 709
Voted on because it's how the game is played, most servers use default setting and that's why I say test with them. I have read and understand the counter argument that they add nothing and in fact detract from balance testing but I personally disagree, with enough testing any imbalances inherent in having criticals on will be balanced out pretty quickly. Over at playstuff we always test with standard damage spread and criticals on and it's never had any sort of noticeable negative impact. I reckon this entire discussion is a consequence of not having enough people attending tests, as crits only really feel like a problem when playercount gets to less than 8 or so.
Either way you can just add a line to the gameday organisation thread stating that map authors should request if they want crits off and damage spread adjusted. You can just put the relevant CVARS into a map specific cfg before the test so you don't even have to change it during the test.
Either way you can just add a line to the gameday organisation thread stating that map authors should request if they want crits off and damage spread adjusted. You can just put the relevant CVARS into a map specific cfg before the test so you don't even have to change it during the test.
2Fort isn't a bad map, it's just a map that runs on forever because you can never get to the intel. Oh wait.
But on a more serious note, it does actually play quite nicely with default server configs (i.e. 24 players, normal respawn times, etc).
I'm still not changing my vote. Crits turned on are the way the game was designed.
MrAlBobo
L13: Stunning Member
- Feb 20, 2008
- 1,059
- 219
21/22 is not a deadlock, one side is clearly ahead.
Just curious if when this thread comes to its inevitable close, and crits on has a slight edge if the config will actually be changed, unlike the last time. A slight majority is still a majority. Seems kinda rude to just do nothing until people forget again.
I agree. every popular map has to have some appeal, and 2fort is definitely better than orange_x (which has the appeal of lemmepractice1337sniper420). engies can have fun, snipers can have fun (more than others), decent spy map i guess. dustbowl has always been a spamfest which relies on 3 ubers countering 3 sentry guns, but it's always epic which people like.
crits purpose was to make the game have high moments, reward players for doing damage, supposedly make the game more fun and i'm not sure if they still serve their purpose.
I don't think winning by one (now 3) is clearly ahead.
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