So is this a "comp" server or a "pub" server?

Removing damage/bullet spread because of balance hardly makes any sense at all. It won't matter in more than, oh, 1% of fights? Acting like spread influences balance is pretty dumb.

Intel crits make the game more interesting, so I voted to keep them on, but I think that a mapper should be able to specify whether they want intel crits during a gameday.

Voting for no crits because they're annoying. Not because I think it throws off balance very much, but it's just no fun to be killed by crits.

Just to clarify some things...

Random crits are turned off on both servers. (tf_weapon_criticals = 0)
Random pellet spread is turned on.
Random damage spread had a corrupt entry in the main config file for the servers (1"1"), which I've corrected to what I assume is intended (1) - which means random damage spread is turned off.
Intel critboost is set to 0 seconds (off).

Lets think of a situation, where you basically would've hit the perfect meatshot with scattergun, should do ~104 damage with that hit. With the random spread, same kind of shot, you do 24 damage (yes, that has happened, many times). That is just so f'ing ridiculous to even think that random spread should be on and break the balance of the players. People have to have same chances to win battles, and with random spread off, that is happening.

About intel critical shots I'm not going to debate, have no experience of them what so ever.

The random criticals are the most retarded part of "vanilla" tf2. I don't know why you should have them on, they break the balance, they aren't fair in any situation, lucky shots can cause teams either lose or win. In the map testing, there shouldn't be any random shit which could shatter the balance. If you balance the map with the chance of random criticals, you are walking the wrong way.

In my opinion of course.



If you really need criticalshots, use krit a kola, kritzkrieg, jarate etc. They aren't random. They are approved.

Tarmo's right.

We should test our maps the way they'll be played. All these things should be on, so we get to find out how they play normally. That just seems obvious to me.

Crits very rarely affect gameplay overall, though i suppose if one team gets more than another that could swing it, slightly. But i think we should have all these things on, and remove thm in special cases. If an excellent defence is swept away by random crits, for example, we should schedule a nocrits test.

What about one server runs vanilla, or sunday gamedays are always vanilla, to give mappers a choice? In fact, that might be good. Do some real stat-collecting so we can do this discussion with frickin numbers!

If you are so furious about the crits and stuff, provide mapname.cfg with the .bsp and it'll execute when the map loads. The mapper gets the settings he wants to. Case solved?

I was pretty sure we werent allowed point_servercommands, and i think a custom cfg file is the same sort of thing?

It shouldn't be a big thing to check them before or if the feature gets abused, ban the abusers?

It could always be integrated into the feedback plugin as a series of checkboxes rather than needing a potentially harmful config file.

So the creator gets to pick at the start of each round? Sounds like an excellent middle ground, actually.

Damage spread doesn't influence just 1% of fights it influences all fights.

Why is disabling random spread such a weird notion to you guys? Now instead of having the game decide wether or not you actually hit a player with all pellets, you have all control. I honestly don't see the problem.

A weapon shouldn't be balanced around random parameters, it should be balanced in it's damage output or other controllable variables.

Bottom line everything random is pretty much retarded, we could add dice to a game of chess but would that make the game any more enjoyable? Only if you don't understand the game and will never really understand what the potential problems could be when facing high level play.

Believe you me when i say that having it tested on a public already isn't the best way to test a map because there is little to no real teamplay. But when you just add random parameters it gets all the worse.

I would like to see a game of 12v12 with organized teams on a public, you will find that demoman is horribly unbalanced, ubers, heavies, all that jazz.

I could go on but i don't think this will change anyone's mind because you are dead set on having your crits and random parameters only because it is somehow core to tf2.

tarmo- said:

Lets think of a situation, where you basically would've hit the perfect meatshot with scattergun, should do ~104 damage with that hit. With the random spread, same kind of shot, you do 24 damage (yes, that has happened, many times). That is just so f'ing ridiculous to even think that random spread should be on and break the balance of the players. People have to have same chances to win battles, and with random spread off, that is happening.

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Just wondering, who is this "you" you are talking about? Because it's certainly not me. I'll agree that 24 to 104 damage is a huge spread, but on the other hand I just can't imagine myself ever taking that very seriously.

In fact - don't get me wrong. I don't care much about this issue, but I want to bring it forward that I don't think everyone around here feels that absolute equal chances in fights are that important. After all, don't the different classes, "subclasses" and weapons already throw off the balance quite a bit?

Again, though - While I don't think damage spread is anything to worry about at all, I don't mind what it's set at, I don't think I'll ever know the difference.

Although it would be nice if shotgun holes weren't square grids.

Arnold said:

Believe you me when i say that having it tested on a public already isn't the best way to test a map because there is little to no real teamplay.

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You don't play much in the comminuties that organise custom map tests do you? It kinda 'grinds my gears' when people go "zomg, public play has NO teamplay, how useless". As far as TF2maps and Playstuff gamedays are concerned the level of teamplay is actually reasonably high. Just because we don't use a teamspeak server and seriously concern ourselves with winning=everything doesn't mean players don't cooperate. Because the regulars will and do all the time.

Besides, if you're releasing a map into the public and "there is never any teamplay" surely it makes sense to test with no teamplay if that's how it's gonna be played; with no teamplay.

A Boojum Snark said:

"The facts"

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If we can avoid a random crit killing a flag carrier or ninja spy on the final point why should we turn that oppotunity down? Especially if it reduces the amount of tests that are required to determine balance.

I've found myself at times in the past, when it comes to providing feedback in map threads, saying things along the lines of: "Such and such was such and such but i random crit a bunch of defenders before capping the point so i can't say whether your final point was too hard or easy to defend. You need to get it tested again to say for sure".

Even though getting your map tested again would be sensible anyway, people will move on ASAP. there arn't enough gameday slots here to all maps and repeat tests take a back seat to newer maps. People will release their next version after a gameday and a few impromptu's and getting alpha's tested in other communities is incredibly difficult.

"It's normal" just doesn't sit well as a reason with me when it's chance based. Chance produced by the game does not create consistant combat, and inconsistant combat makes it incredibly difficult to deduce the power of X variables.

grazr said:

You don't play much in the comminuties that organise custom map tests do you? It kinda 'grinds my gears' when people go "zomg, public play has NO teamplay, how useless". As far as TF2maps and Playstuff gamedays are concerned the level of teamplay is actually reasonably high. Just because we don't use a teamspeak server and seriously concern ourselves with winning=everything doesn't mean players don't cooperate. Because the regulars will and do all the time.

Besides, if you're releasing a map into the public and "there is never any teamplay" surely it makes sense to test with no teamplay if that's how it's gonna be played; with no teamplay.

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I have played public a lot, i have also played public maptests quite a few times now and i can honestly say there is no real teamplay. You should really get into the competetive scene, i've seen both (comp high level and a fair share of public) so I can make an objective statement.

You really don't understand what teamplay entails if you claim that publics do have teamplay.

We had this discussion already, some time ago in a different thread and i remember many users not agreeing with me. You choose to believe whatever you want.

I'm not saying you can't have fun without teamplay that's a different story but please, please don't be offended by the fact that you have no teamplay in comparison to comp players, it's just a simple fact.

Also if a map works with teamplay it will work without, it won't work the other way around though.

I do agree with the lack of teamplay in publics thing. The "team" usually consists of the Heavy + Medic on one team and some people tagging on behind them whilst everyone else deathmatches. Very rarely do we get tense and exciting battles in public matches. In some respects, I miss the old Xbox 360 Dustbowl games where the balance felt just right, and it was only 8v8 at max.

The Political Gamer said:

I feel like the hole "Crits unbalance everything" is moot when it comes down to the fact that valve made the game with crits and spread in mind. If we test makes in a no crit environment we will never take into account how crits would effect gameplay. I understand if the map was say made for comp players it would have crits off but most of the maps made here are for pub games were cirts, spread, and intel crits are on. In my eyes crits are the "necessary evil" of TF2 and I don't like it that me are mucking with Valve's settings.

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I still think that you should balance the map to work without criticals first. If the server uses crits, then it might be a lucky turn around in the gameplay when the critical shot occurs.

Remember that if you are making a map, you should at least give a thought to comp scene, even if it's a small one. We might give it a chance if the map is awesome for 6on6. (Hell, I'm giving a chance to almost every 5cp map there is. Some get removed immediately, some are still sticking around and getting played)

The Political Gamer said:

When did comp start playing PL maps?

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Highlander.