Thoughts on the new engineer weapons

martijntje said:

Golden wrench
Never seen it ingame, therefore it doesnt exist Q.E.D.

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Are you an engineer? (look at "Black Sheep")

Anyway, I think the weapons and changes aren't too bad (well, they wont be once the engineer spam ends).

A few of my opinions:

Frontier Justice:
Not a great deal of use, at least for now. So many engineers runnin' around, your stuff usually gets fixed, and when it doesn't, it's because a demoman has been ubered and rampages the whole area (killing you too). I suppose it wont get much better after the engie spam either actually. Camping engies are going to die with their sentry, so no crits for them, and attack engies don't have enough ammo per "clip" to actually attack with it normally.

Wrangler:
Very fun. The added range is great, and is balanced by the vulnerability (to yourself, not the sentry) and the challenge of aiming without hitting a wall.

Gunslinger:
I don't have it yet, but because of the health boost and the small fast sentry, it could counter the draw-backs to the Frontier Justice if used correctly.

Southern Hospitality:
Again I don't have it. Can't imagine anything wrong with it, nor anything amazing about it. Just like a normal weapon unlock.

My problem with this update is everything is badly organized. Much like MrAlbobo's complaint, the stuff got attached to the wrong stuff and it's really a mess.

I would have much rather seen the PDQ than the Gunslinger/mini sentry combo. I would much rather see the wrangler without a shield, and the Southern Hospitality is just the most random thing added to the game yet.

Really, I feel like they had a bunch of good individual ideas (sentry that builds fast, mini sentry, revenge shotgun, manual sentry control) but when they started making the actual items, they just threw stuff together in a way that doesn't quite work for me.

And moving buildings is an awesome idea, but right now it's just broken balance.

Randdalf said:

A lot of people tend to call some things overpowered because they've yet to develop an efficient strategy to overcome those things. Give it time, and you'll adapt.

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This times twelve thousand.

My strategy for the wrangler tends to be, get out of the FOV of the sentry, and pick off the engineer with whatever's at hand. A lot of times, they keep trying to shoot you, and by the time they realize there's a wall in the way, a lot of their health will be gone.

EDIT:

I also agree with Nerdboy's points.

Frontier Justice: Not very good by itself, immensely useful if you're good with a shotgun to begin with (gotta be able to aim fairly precisely, unlike me) and good at keeping a sentry up in a high-kill location. I still have yet to make it work well for me. I do wish Valve would up the magazine size to at least 4, as 3 is close to useless ... maybe in a future patch?

Gunslinger: Have it, but haven't used it yet.

Wrangler: Easily my favorite. Exchanging rockets with an enemy soldier is fun, especially when he blows up first. It's a great tool for clearing points, breaking up a crowd of enemies, etc. The shield on the sentry seems quite necessary to me, as even a level 3 under normal circumstances can be taken down by 3 well-placed rockets (heck, ever since the Engineer Update went live a Scout's pistol has been able to down any size sentry I build in a single clip...), meaning without the shield you'd pretty much instantly lose your machine should a soldier (or scout, darnit) decide to aim for it.

Southern Hospitality: Don't have it yet.

Frontier Justice: Seems fun, been using it a bit. For some reason I feel like its spread is slightly narrower as I seem to get kills with it quicker than a reg. shotgun. Revenge crits are interesting to say the least, though.

Wrangler: Tried using it a few times, not really a fan. It's a good concept but its use is for more defensive play (something I rarely do as engie). Not a fan of the shield, bit excessive given you get free reign of where you're aiming the sentry to with no real drawback.

Gunslinger: Fisting buildings has never been so fun! >_>

...Seriously though I do enjoy the mini sentries but I can't help but think you can offensive engineer much better with a regular level 1. The massive light on top really limits ultra sneaky placement which was what I was hoping for going into the update.

Nineaxis said:

I would have much rather seen the PDQ than the Gunslinger/mini sentry combo.

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It's a much cleaner implementation, since you won't have trouble with people putting up "cheap fast sentries" and then exploiting the "normality" of the sentry by using another engineer to upgrade it.

Terr said:

It's a much cleaner implementation, since you won't have trouble with people putting up "cheap fast sentries" and then exploiting the "normality" of the sentry by using another engineer to upgrade it.

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Or worse: multiple engineers with only PDQs and level 1 buildings.

Haha the Gunslinger is amazing, especially when combined with Frontier Justice, completely changes the engies play style and is the most fun I've had with tf2. By the time somebody takes it down and starts to concentrate on you; you've already put up another!

Best moment being when I had a heavy/medic combo pop an uber on this one little sentry (it was getting the medic and the heavy hadn't seen it.) then by the time he'd walked around corner I'd already got another one up, fired the one stored crit I had at medic from a distance, the sentry finished him off and then after ducking behind a prop for cover, waiting for the heavy to slowly make his way to me - I remote destroyed my sentry and used the crit that his own medic gave me in his death to kill him (my mini senty had chipped a fair bit off already).

It was awesome.

moving buildings: need to go down easier. have way too much health. minisentry shouldnt really slow you down that much either.

wrangler: really annoying when another engy repairs it, but you are extremely vulnerable to spies. I would say to make it nonrepairable and maybe nonmoveable when it is "dead" for 3 seconds.

gunslinger: probably my favorite idea. (better than PDQ) still experimenting with its killing power on the frontlines. scout are easy, but soldiers are still a challenge. at the least, replace the third crit punch with a second minicrit punch. maybe something with minicrits when you and your sentry both hurt your enemy. might make it OP, but, like i said, still experimenting. wrangler seems to do very well with it in situations, and the pistol in the other. everything is 50/50 with it which is really versatile.

southern hospitality: bleed mechanic is kind of dumb especially with the new "drug" effect. we definitely need more antispy weapons. really stupid weapon. this must be valves way to buff the pyro.

FJ is a good balanced weapon. although those revenge crits are damn annoying when they pop out from nowhere.

I love the Frontier Justice to death, I think I can aim pretty well with the shotgun, so getting revenge crits makes offensive engy so much sweeter.

When it comes to the Gunslinger, I'd just caution (from Eyelander/Targe experience) that sometimes a melee crit/mini-crit is not helpful, particularly when it means the knockback pushes your opponent out of melee range...

Moving Buildings:

I find that It's still crazy OP. I built a level 3 sentry at the start of the 2nd round of pipeline, and carried it over to the bridge overlooking the enemy spawn and final point area. I singlehandedly held up the enemy team from even leaving the spawn, and was able to alternate between tanking and grabbing metal (and I can't remember, but I think it was a fast respawn server too). By the time it was over, I was dominating a couple of failspies, and my team had already pushed the cart up to the ramp. IIRC it was finally capped by a scout spamming NEEDADISPENSAHERE

Also, I met a pyro once while carrying a level 2 sentry. I placed it, and then he puffed and stung me. My sentry mowed him down before you could say "[witty comment]"

I liked the idea to make only teleporters and dispensers mobile, because they can take some time to build and upgrade, but sentries? no.

Frontier Justice:

I don't use it, because I value my shotgun, but being killed while caught between an engy and his mini sentry, and killed by his revenge crit he got courtesy of my leeroy jenkins scout teammate is no fun, nor is getting killed as a heavy at medium range because my demo teammate (who also died from revenge crits) blew up a camping engy's sentry.

It really seems to fill a niche that didn't really need to be filled, like the equalizer.

Wrangler:

Looks fun (don't have it yet), but shooting rockets at a sentry safely out of range only to OMGWTFBBQ killed because out of nowhere the sentry can now shoot everywhere it has LOS isn't fun.

Other than that, there's sentry jumping, which will mess up so many maps, and this.

Needs a delay between wrangler deploy and use, and some kind of indicator that the sentry I'm shooting can be wrangled. Maybe an antenna with a radio wave particle?

Gunslinger:

Dont have it, it seems balanced enough, and mini sentries are SO CUTE I'M GONNA DIE.

Southern Hospitality:

Looks cool, but Fire vulnerability = BAD.

Don't have, haven't seen in use. Should I craft it?

Golden Wrench:

This video explains my thoughts on the golden wrench. Nothing more needs to be said.

Terr said:

When it comes to the Gunslinger, I'd just caution (from Eyelander/Targe experience) that sometimes a melee crit/mini-crit is not helpful, particularly when it means the knockback pushes your opponent out of melee range...

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I don't melee with the gunslinger.

I'd say Frontier Justice fills the niche of offensive engineer, which needed to be done in my opinion.

Also, I think a Sentry should downgrade to lvl 2 or 1 upon moving it, or just give it less health as its setting up.

Ninjilla said:

I'd say Frontier Justice fills the niche of offensive engineer, which needed to be done in my opinion.

Also, I think a Sentry should downgrade to lvl 2 or 1 upon moving it, or just give it less health as its setting up.

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I think it should have a set health as it's deploying, It seems as it goes through each stage of upgrading it resets it's own health.

Ninjilla said:

I'd say Frontier Justice fills the niche of offensive engineer, which needed to be done in my opinion.

Also, I think a Sentry should downgrade to lvl 2 or 1 upon moving it, or just give it less health as its setting up.

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The FJ is for engineers that are being harassed by spies. Because it's not that accurate and only has three shots, you need to use it up close, so I think it's not for the offense. The six shots of the normal shotgun are so much better.

Nerdboy said:

The FJ is for engineers that are being harassed by spies.

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Disagree. When you actually have those revenge-crits, you don't want to waste them on any sort of trivial spycheck. Normal shotgun is better for anti-spy duty.

Terr said:

Disagree. When you actually have those revenge-crits, you don't want to waste them on any sort of trivial spycheck. Normal shotgun is better for anti-spy duty.

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I agree. I use my FJ to check forward and see if I can set up my sentry as I move forward, and crit people in my way (works well for those demos that cant aim pipes too well too!) until I can set up a sentry. Either that or as a defensive engineer, if you have crits and a Lvl 3 set up, you can venture out a little bit and check whats coming or take out people on the cart.

Had a crazy game on Turbine yesterday. I had a good team for the most part, but dayyum, you had to go down the the scoreboard for the enemy team by five places before finding someone I hadn't dominated, with more below, reaching a peak of around 8/14.

And all from the FJ auto-mode minisentries getting assists.

However, it did drive home how annoying it is that if your shotgun blast finishes the enemy, your turret doesn't get an assist even if it was doing 90% of the work. That seems vaguely wrong.

Terr said:

Had a crazy game on Turbine yesterday. I had a good team for the most part, but dayyum, you had to go down the the scoreboard for the enemy team by five places before finding someone I hadn't dominated, with more below, reaching a peak of around 8/14.

And all from the FJ auto-mode minisentries getting assists.

However, it did drive home how annoying it is that if your shotgun blast finishes the enemy, your turret doesn't get an assist even if it was doing 90% of the work. That seems vaguely wrong.

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Probably to prevent even more Revenge Crit spams.