Gravel Rocket

cyked

L3: Member
Dec 18, 2009
132
89
In a gravel pit where both RED and BLU have been searching for the precious resource, there has been a recent fuel shortage. The trucks can no longer carry gravel from the pit to the local train station. It appears great minds think alike as both RED and BLU have decided to solve this problem through the use of jet propulsion. The newest product from Mann Co., the Gravel Rocket, is the fastest way to ship gravel across the world. Both companies have become increasingly greedy and want the entire pit and both rockets all for themselves!

Special Thanks:
Booj - Mapping Resource Pack
Acumen - Gravel Rocket Model
TF2M Steam Chat - Inspiration
Cyclopsided - Idea Bouncer Guy
Misanthrope - Muse
 
Last edited:

DjD

L5: Dapper Member
May 18, 2010
230
55
hi,
the layout looks good so far.
one thing i noticed just by looking at the 3rd screenshot: those two balconies at the middle cap point seem to be very sniper friendly and there is no real cover on them.
if this is intended, then alright, but i just stumbled over it.
 
Mar 23, 2010
1,872
1,696
reminds me of fastlane. :woot:
 

Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
aa
Jun 9, 2009
2,364
2,728
The last point looks like it'd be a pain to get past the Hydro barriers; I suggest doing something about that.

In other notes, yay, ramps!
 

Geal

L4: Comfortable Member
Aug 16, 2009
162
56
First things first, shrink the last two points. They are WAAAAAY too big, both horizontally and vertically. The buildings are very tall, making the players feel small and making the buildings feel empty. Graza wrote a great guide on scale in TF2, I would HIGHLY suggest you read it carefully, then redo the last two points to more accurately fit recommended lengths and distances. http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=12605

Now, specifics. Let's start with the second point. It's way too big, there's no good sentry spots. The first impulse is to build in the corner near the cp (can be seen in the second of your screenshots), but attackers coming from the opposite side can easily out-range it. If you set up on the opposite wall or on the balcony, then attackers coming in from the raised platform can out-range it. This frustrates engineers, and forces a team to have multiple engineers to defend a single point. Shortening the room by moving the wall opposite the upper entrance closer to the point could help with this issue. Also, when you do place health and ammo (really, there's no reason not to do this. It takes five minutes.) make sure you place them in areas where you want to encourage engineers to build - because they will likely build around them.

The last point is worse. First, it has the same issue as the second point - any sentry position can be out-ranged, and the sentries that cover the doors can't cover the point (and vice-versa). Moving the respawns and the control point platform much closer to the building will help with this, or blocking off the middle and forcing attackers to wrap around the sides. Also, shrink it a bit horizontally - attackers taking the far flank can easily out-range sentries. Adding some cover will help with this problem, but it is NOT a sure-fire way to fix. Throwing in tons of cover will just make your map feel cluttered and bloated.
Furthermore, attackers have WAY too many entrances into the final point. Two main doors on the ground level, one smaller flanking door on the ground, two in the upper deck, and one far flanking path. SIX! SIX paths that blu can take. Not only is that far too many to defend, but it splinters the teams up. You want to keep teams together and focused, to promote teamwork. Usually, attackers have one main route and two side routes (usually one which flanks around the main route, and another that flanks farther in), or two equally used routes. Cutting off two, or heck, even one of the bottom doors (get rid of the smaller one) would help this, along with removing one of the upper paths. The far flank is okay.

I would comment on the middle point and the paths between the points, but unfortunately almost all combat happened in the first/last two points.

Also, this is why you always have alltalk on during early tests like this: the game updated, rendering recorded demos useless.
 

cyked

L3: Member
Dec 18, 2009
132
89
First things first, shrink the last two points. They are WAAAAAY too big, both horizontally and vertically. The buildings are very tall, making the players feel small and making the buildings feel empty. Graza wrote a great guide on scale in TF2, I would HIGHLY suggest you read it carefully, then redo the last two points to more accurately fit recommended lengths and distances. http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=12605

Now, specifics. Let's start with the second point. It's way too big, there's no good sentry spots. The first impulse is to build in the corner near the cp (can be seen in the second of your screenshots), but attackers coming from the opposite side can easily out-range it. If you set up on the opposite wall or on the balcony, then attackers coming in from the raised platform can out-range it. This frustrates engineers, and forces a team to have multiple engineers to defend a single point. Shortening the room by moving the wall opposite the upper entrance closer to the point could help with this issue. Also, when you do place health and ammo (really, there's no reason not to do this. It takes five minutes.) make sure you place them in areas where you want to encourage engineers to build - because they will likely build around them.

The last point is worse. First, it has the same issue as the second point - any sentry position can be out-ranged, and the sentries that cover the doors can't cover the point (and vice-versa). Moving the respawns and the control point platform much closer to the building will help with this, or blocking off the middle and forcing attackers to wrap around the sides. Also, shrink it a bit horizontally - attackers taking the far flank can easily out-range sentries. Adding some cover will help with this problem, but it is NOT a sure-fire way to fix. Throwing in tons of cover will just make your map feel cluttered and bloated.
Furthermore, attackers have WAY too many entrances into the final point. Two main doors on the ground level, one smaller flanking door on the ground, two in the upper deck, and one far flanking path. SIX! SIX paths that blu can take. Not only is that far too many to defend, but it splinters the teams up. You want to keep teams together and focused, to promote teamwork. Usually, attackers have one main route and two side routes (usually one which flanks around the main route, and another that flanks farther in), or two equally used routes. Cutting off two, or heck, even one of the bottom doors (get rid of the smaller one) would help this, along with removing one of the upper paths. The far flank is okay.

I would comment on the middle point and the paths between the points, but unfortunately almost all combat happened in the first/last two points.

Also, this is why you always have alltalk on during early tests like this: the game updated, rendering recorded demos useless.

Thank you for the suggestions, I will definitely look into changing the size of those points. I am planning on taking out that small door on the lower level and the upper window. Hopefully adding in the health and ammo will allow more fighting to take place at mid.

EDIT: Also, the update did nothing to the demos. They are fine.
 
Last edited:

redcommunism

L2: Junior Member
Feb 13, 2010
57
12
My suggestion is that you mess around with some of the details. Cliffs would not come to a random halt and expose sky behind it. Instead, have them taper off, then add in props, perhaps trees, or large buildings. Also, take a look at texture blending tutorials. It will make your textures much more appealing and professional.
 

cyked

L3: Member
Dec 18, 2009
132
89
My suggestion is that you mess around with some of the details. Cliffs would not come to a random halt and expose sky behind it. Instead, have them taper off, then add in props, perhaps trees, or large buildings. Also, take a look at texture blending tutorials. It will make your textures much more appealing and professional.

Thanks for the feedback. I will have to take a look at those tutorials. I'm also going to work a lot more on the cliffs appearing "natural."

Just a quick side note though, do you really think trees would fit in a gravel pit themed map?
 

Boylee

pew pew pew
aa
Apr 29, 2008
1,068
709
My suggestion is that you mess around with some of the details. Cliffs would not come to a random halt and expose sky behind it. Instead, have them taper off, then add in props, perhaps trees, or large buildings. Also, take a look at texture blending tutorials. It will make your textures much more appealing and professional.

Don't do this yet. It's good advice in the long run, but aesthetics should not be the priority at this early stage.

First things first, does the layout work? Test it in a few games, identify things that are problematic and fix them one at a time. Don't make a multitude of sweeping changes in one go unless you're certain they'll work.

Then, test it some more. Once you're sure the layout is working then sure, pile on all the details and the fancy textures you want, but believe me, no-one wants to play a pretty map that has a terrible layout, so get that working first.

I agree that a few of the points look a little open and could probably do with having the fat trimmed off or a few areas filled in with small ancillary buildings or other miscellaneous cover.

My initial knee-jerk reaction is that the middle point is crying out for something along these lines:
cp_gravelrocket_a0e0002z.jpg


Of course that's an initial suggestion based on just looking at screenies, I've not loaded the map so I have not much clue about scale. It gives you an idea of what I mean about adding a bit more cover though.

do you really think trees would fit in a gravel pit themed map?

Personally, no. Not unless they're dead and dried up.
 
Last edited:

Fraz

Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.
aa
Dec 28, 2008
944
1,152
I had a run through this myself, some problems I noticed:

cp_gravelrocket_01.jpg


From here I could see into all the exits, bar 1.

cp_gravelrocket_02.jpg


It was the same on the cliffs at the other side, either clip them off or add more cover in front of the doors.

I feel I should be able to get ontop of here It feels small enough to warrant it, I dunno.
cp_gravelrocket_05.jpg


I had to jump up this, make it smaller or add stairs.
cp_gravelrocket_06.jpg


Quite a large sightline here
cp_gravelrocket_07.jpg


Looking through this window, a couple of snipers could look down bath spawn exits.
cp_gravelrocket_08.jpg


This room confused me, it's a resupply, but not a spawn as far as I could tell, and it's open all the time? I dunno.
cp_gravelrocket_09.jpg


Needed to jump up here as well, add stairs or make the ledge smaller.
cp_gravelrocket_10.jpg


Overall I found it very confusing inside. To the second point you have seven entrances in total. It feels cramped in some areas, open in others. I think you should maybe try and change up the second point to make that building a lot simpler. I also noticed a lack of height difference around the immediate control points apart from cp 2, cp 1 was kinda there, but mid felt very flat.

The dynamic door prop is thrown about everywhere in your map, so much so that I couldn't tell whether the door was a forward spawn or a legit pathway to the points, try and make the spawn doors and the doors in direct routes, different to help players mobility about the map. It causes a little confusion.

The map looks like a good start and I hope to play it soon with some people on the server ;)
 

Icarus

aa
Sep 10, 2008
2,245
1,210
Really awesome. Just a few problems on our first test:

-winning team respawn time is insanely short. It should never be shorter than 5s imo
-final CP is too hard to take. Long cap time, massive height advantage, close proximity to spawnroom are all factors
-1st forward spawn is too close to CP2 to allow teams to reenter it. Make the doors one-way or move the spawn room
-Spawn rooms should be oriented so players are facing in the direction they need to go. Signs won't be enough.
-Very promising :D
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
2nd is really uninspired. Everything from the point to the doors leading to 1st is straight out of granary and it makes me sad.

Overall scale of mid seemed too large with doorway scale being too low (reeeeally hard to get through them)

You're leaking too http://www.interlopers.net/errors
 

Icarus

aa
Sep 10, 2008
2,245
1,210
Use AddTime instead of SetTime to reset the clock, so the announcer will announce the captures.