Sort of New guy. Sort of New Guy Questions.

Stink Horse

L2: Junior Member
Aug 1, 2009
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Hi there. This is the second time I've attempted getting my feet wet with map development and I was wondering about a couple of things before I threw myself back into it. Any answers to these questions would be super helpful!

1. Hammer Alternatives - The Hammer editor has been around for over a decade now and it was showing it's age in terms of usability the last time I grappled with it. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but thought I'd ask anyway.

2. Grid Frustration - I work very hard to build my levels as accurately to the grid as possible. I understand why this is important for both ease of level development, texturing, modularity, etc. So why is it that so many of the level model objects are just ever so slightly OFF the grid, or require such special handling to make them fit? I'm assuming I was doing something wrong, or at least I really hope I am.

3. The Tyranny of Scale - How do you plot out your maps? I often find my attempts to make the world to a correct scale creates locations that are too tight and corridors that are too thin. However when I try and correct this I end up with locations that are simply too big. How is this avoided from the get go? Are there easy player model props to work with that allows for size checks before you go any further on construction?

4. Sniper Wars - How much of a concern is this? I'm an old school TF player and I've always lamented the pointless duels snipers would lock themselves into. Is this only my concern? Should I work hard to prevent sniper decks from seeing one another or should I simply let the map evolve without trying to force the issue?

Anyway thanks for any tips you might have for me.
Back to doodling map layouts.
 

lana

Currently On: ?????
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Sep 28, 2009
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1 - Hammer is the best editor for Source. There's not much else to say about that.

2 - It's very difficult to create models that are exactly on grid. It's not like you can implement hammer's grid into whatever software you're using.

3 - I typically use other maps for reference. But don't ask me about this one, I copied Gorge and still ended up overscaled. It's also a good idea to use player models to compare what you can and can't see and how they fit into the area.

4 - Sightlines are tough. You usually don't end up with sniper wars that often (unless it's something like 2fort where the battlements are right across from each other) so you don't often have to worry about that, but you should keep in mind that not all classes are effective from a mile away. Cover is recommended in large areas.
 

Stink Horse

L2: Junior Member
Aug 1, 2009
73
23
All of that was pretty much what I was expecting in the way of answers. Oh well.

In regards to the multiplayer models for height checks, are they mixed in with all the standard mdl files, ie accessible in Hammer without any extra work or have people made stationary downloadable versions of the characters?
 

A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
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Nov 2, 2007
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Yes they are.

About point 2... most of those little fiddley sizes don't need to be worried about. Something 1 unit bigger or offset or whatnot sorta goes with TF2's haphazardly built facade to hide the important stuff. About the only time I can think of I've really had to deal with it is the height of some of the doorframes required me to drop off grid to make the wall above. Everything else (including payload tracks not lining up) is acceptable to be crooked.
 

Stink Horse

L2: Junior Member
Aug 1, 2009
73
23
That makes sense now that I think about it.

So new question:

5. Work Flow - How do you guys start a map, Past the brain storming phase that is. What do you build first/second/third? When you you duplicate the map for the other team. How often do you dupe. Is there an easier way than a massive copy/paste/rotate? When should you start texturing?

I have a tendency to leap right in and start throwing in mdls, is that good or bad? Also I just started reading this: Optimization Intro

I'm worried about what else I might not know. Is there a comprehensive Starter tutorial/best practices guide out there or is it all piece-meal?
 

Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
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Jun 9, 2009
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There's no specific answer to your fifth question. I usually build whatever came into my mind first (like Advection's last point) and then build from that. Some people start with spawns, points, etc; it's all a matter of preference. As for texturing, that varies even more than building techniques. I prefer to keep textures and major detailing until beta, but some people just start out a1's with basic wood/metal/concrete/etc textures.

P.S.
I don't think there's anything better for creating the other half of the map than copypasta rotation.
 
Nov 14, 2009
1,257
378
All of that was pretty much what I was expecting in the way of answers. Oh well.

In regards to the multiplayer models for height checks, are they mixed in with all the standard mdl files, ie accessible in Hammer without any extra work or have people made stationary downloadable versions of the characters?

The multiplayer models are availible as info_player_teamspawn. If you have ABS library installed, a model of the engineer will appear, and it is also used for spawning players in the actual game.
 

lana

Currently On: ?????
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Sep 28, 2009
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The multiplayer models are availible as info_player_teamspawn. If you have ABS library installed, a model of the engineer will appear, and it is also used for spawning players in the actual game.

Though the info_player_teamspawn entities that ABS's pack includes are useful for scaling, it's better to use the actual player models. Comparing the sizes of battlements to a heavy doesn't make as much sense as, say, a sniper.
 
Nov 14, 2009
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Although thats true, I use the engineer from ABS just to get a sense of scale, and put my camera at his eyes, and look around.