1. Hey Guest, welcome to the new forums. Be sure to check out this thread to get all the information you need on the cool new stuff!
  2. For information on the current problems with the download system, please see this thread.

Our servers are now running a Steam Workshop rotation, if you'd like your map to be considered for inclusion on our rotation, post in the rotation discussion thread

Or, if you just want to play some of the best community maps the Workshop has to offer, you can join our servers by clicking these links:

[WIP] pl_SubStation

Discussion in 'WIP (Work in Progress)' started by bobby1211, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    pl_substation

    Back Story: It is a dark night, Blu has a plan. A plan to take over the underworld of New York. The great battles of the war have left the world as we know it uninhabitable. The only long term habitable areas are the abandoned subway stations. Blu has gained access to Western Yard, the western most train yard. They know it will not be an easy task destroying the Red base to take over the underworld. The Red base is Eastern Substation and Red is aware of Blus' plans (Spy got in on a meeting). Blus' task at hand, take over the underground for a better life. Starting at Western Yard they will need to escort the bomb down into Wester Substation onto a flatcar. Then move the train, bomb loaded, across town using subway tunnels. Lastly unload and escort the bomb to its strategic destination to destroy Eastern Substation upon detonation. Red, simply defend, as is life in the underworld.

    Map Info:

    Working Name: pl_substation (Possibly pl_underworld)

    Current Build: Alpha 04 09/07/08

    Download: [Download pl_SubStation Here] (Zipped so I don't have to change link every build)

    Object:

    Round 1: Blue team escorts Bomb on Cart from above ground down into the subway station onto a flatcar.
    Round 2 & 3: Blue team pushes a train (engine and flatcar loaded with bomb) through 2 stages of subways while Red attempts to stop them.
    Round 4: Blue team unloads bomb from flatcar and escorts it to "final terminus" and are rewarded with a nice large explosion.

    Of Note:

    • At this time only the flatcar is the payload, only it has the trigger to push. ie: A player on top of the Engine will not move the train. In a4 I made engine push also. No one mentioned it but I think it will give blue a bit more of much needed advantage after Alpha 3 testing on Game Day.
    • You can not build on the flatcar, it is not currently possible to make it so. (Valve has hinted to this ability at some point in the future, specifically stating that there will be a payload map with a platform instead of a bomb and that engis will be able to build on it). I am researching a spawned sentry but don't like going around Valve.

    Update Progress: [Link to ChangeList.txt]

    09/07/08 - Alpha 4 uploaded. Lots of mapping changes. Added alternate route from blue spawn to 1st point and also from first point to second point. Added a couple more ammo and health packs. Created new exit from blue spawn that unlocks after 1st point is capped. Made the entire train push, you can now ride on top of the engine and it will move. Made narrow tunnel between 1st and 2nd point to alleviate sniper heaven.

    08/24/08 - Game Day was awesome. Demos available [One, Two. 1/2. Thanks Arma!]. Lots of great ideas to work with.

    08/17/08 - Finished up workings of spawn rooms. Put simple skybox to give idea of starting at street level. The PL is flawless now for Round B, does everything it should as it should. Replaced boxes on the train with the cubic ones for A3 release.

    08/15/08 - As of last night I have everything working great with the first stage except a few minor things (listed below). Still some layout work needed at first point. No texturing done.

    ToDo:
    1. Class specific research (08/24/08):
      • Engis WAY to powerful. Need alternate routes for Blue team to run ahead and clear defender camps.
      • Snipers way to powerful. Need to address issue of straight map.
      • Soldiers might be a little to powerful currently though testing showed they did not take advantage of the straight map as much as the snipers.
      • Heavy/Medic have their place
      • Spys have cutouts and corners and utilized them well.
      • Pyros and Demos can do their destruction
      • Scounts can run and jump their merry hearts out.
    2. Add nobuild to the flatcar so it doesn't look like an engi can build.
    3. Address the issue of the straightness of the map. Brainstorm the ability to turn the train. I haven't played with this yet but in my mind the train will look odd because the cars wont hinge. I was able to make the train turn and hinge but was not fluid in movement and caused lots of collision issues. Made a narrow tunnel instead.

    Known issues (08/24/08):

    1. The small rectangular boxes on the train were destroyable. The square ones are good, the shorter rectangle boxes when shot, fall off the flatcar. The clip brushes around them stay causing invisible barriers.
    2. The Bomb dispenses metal. I followed the
    3. As mentioned above even though you can not build on the train, as an engi it shows the "blueprint" of the buildings then doesn't let you build.
      Valve Wiki. The Payload in Goldrush doesn't, does it? Is there a setting in mapobj_cart_dispenser or dispenser_touch_trigger? This is not a problem, It dispenses metal in Goldrush.
    4. Red did not win when time ran out. :blushing: [so newbish] *Fixed*
    5. When the Stage 1 2nd point is capped and blue wins, the announcer gives "the payload is reaching the final terminus" message and then the siren (that plays when the bomb is close to final cap) plays and does not stop. It continues into the next round/game. (FIXED : Had last point relay disable Bomb Watcher A.)
    Testing:

    Alpha test 02 (b.03) (08/24/08 TF2M Game Day): Gameplay went great and got a lot of excellent feedback.
    1. Snipers were way to powerful on both sides. Engis way to powerful on defense.
    2. Seeing a Heavy eat a Sandvitch on my map was pretty fun.
    3. A Blue Engi [Credit] at one point utilized buildings to get up to the red spawn at the second point. If he could get a bit higher or the ledge was lower he could have got a building up there. I may allow this for the next build.
    4. The engine not pushing became an issue when SIX defensive Engis setup 6 level 3 sentys at the 2nd point. Multiple times players made it safely to the front of the train (mostly ubers or spys) but then could do nothing. If they were to be able to push, it would nullify the 6 level 3s.
    5. A demo was camping at the exit to the first point and dominated everyone that came down the ledge because they were instantly cornered. Need to edit the wall placement.
    6. I (and I saw others) placed a teleporter exit on the tracks and the train went over it. As soon as I tried to use the entrance, the exit blew up. Perfect!
    7. No evidence of collision issues!

    Alpha test 01 (b.01) (08/13/08): I hosted the map for my buddy Dan to check it out and some random guy ended up on the server with us. We played 2 on 1 for about 2 hours. It was great having help and checking out if things worked or if it didn't. Noticed a few things I had no idea were happening. Got a lot of things fixed.

    Images:

    Alpha 04:
    1. Click! - This is the map as of A4.
    2. Click! - The new path from 1st point to 2nd. You can see the 2nd point in the right of the pic.
    3. Click! - Point A (2nd point). Train enters from gates at the right (They open apon cap of 1st point).
    4. Click! - Entrance behind the tanker takes you up above the 1st point, for spys and ubers to forge ahead and clear the way.

    Alpha 03:

    Click! - From TF2M Game Day, The Engi defense that worked a little too well at the second point.

    Alpha 02:

    1. Click! - This is the exit from Blue spawn. It will eventually be built to look like turnstiles to get onto the train platform...
    2. Click! - The exit from Blue spawn from the outside, we see the train.
    3. Click! - From behind the train down to the end of the map. This is what worries me about snipers and soldiers. I think some strategically placed objects can cut down the issue. I was thinking a boxcar on the 2nd track would help.
    4. Click! - This is where the train enters the first point area. Note the elevated room across the track...
    5. Click! - View from inside the noted elevated room. The entrance across the way is a tunnel that comes out above the blue spawn for initial defense of the train (And spys to go around and come up from behind).
    6. Click! - Point A (First stage 2nd point)
    7. Click! - Red spawn. Stairs down to point A to the left and quick exit to mid map shows to the right.
    8. Click! - A screeny from Alpha Test 01

    All thoughts, criticism, ideas or help are 110% appreciated!

    -Bobby
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2008
  2. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

    Messages:
    1,616
    Positive Ratings:
    1,270
    I promise you'll get plenty of thoughts, criticisms etc once those screenshots are up, but a general rule is no screens, no download.
     
  3. stubby

    stubby L1: Registered

    Messages:
    22
    Positive Ratings:
    2
    the rule is no pics, no clicks.

    make sure next time you get some pictures up before you make a thread about it. :p
     
  4. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    Edit to remove my unnecessary response.

    Note for future WIP posters. Screen shots from the start help a lot! :thumbup1:

    -Bobby
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
  5. oxy

    oxy L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    208
    Positive Ratings:
    29
    I see what you are saying, but you could have taken a screen shot of the lay our from your beta version. That would help us out a lot in giving you feedback on your idea.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    Thank you (seriously this time) for pointing out your reasoning for wanting a screenshot. I can and will upload screenshots to get feedback not in an attempt to get a broken build downloaded.

    -Bobby
     
  7. stubby

    stubby L1: Registered

    Messages:
    22
    Positive Ratings:
    2
    You had a point stubby, but editing to prevent flamewar ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2008
  8. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    326
    Positive Ratings:
    127
    Wow people, mellow out a bit. A single post telling him pictures would be useful is probably enough. Beyond that if having pictures is THAT big of a deal to you then just don't respond on the thread until he gets some pictures.

    Actually, there's precedent for not posting a picture of the map right away with ctf_aerospace, where all of the pictures were research and brainstorming. pl_smoke is another example. I actually like it when people brainstorm in a WIP thread because it allows people to recommend things early before the mapper gets his ideas all laid out.

    All that said, my recommendations regarding the map:
    - An underground area like a subway is a cool concept, but I'd suggest doing it in such a way that people can see the sky once in a while. It gives it a more interesting and layered feel. You could do this with skylights, which some subways have, or by having the spawns at street level and make people enter through the stairs.

    - This would be the perfect map for a night sky as well, which people are asking for all the time. Since the subway is 100% artificially lit and any aboveground areas could have simple lighting as well, it is one of the few map ideas that would really work as a night map in TF2.

    - Regarding buildables on a moving platform, see dreadnought. It's a terrible map, but it has destructible prefab sentries on the cart that move with it. Might be an option since engineers can build them up, but if they get destroyed they can't be rebuilt.

    - Having an engine in front of the flatcar will block most of the forward view while on the flatcar and will also provide a TON of cover for the BLU team. You sure you want that?

    - I like the name pl_substation better, but mainly because pl_underworld sounds like it should be a more dark and ominous map.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  9. stubby

    stubby L1: Registered

    Messages:
    22
    Positive Ratings:
    2
    yes i agree but those people had Refrence pictures and layouts and the like.

    if this was sort of a idea thread i would suggest him showing some early layout pics, refrence photos, and the like.

    Edited: Removed some of the antagonism and left the helpful parts
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2008
  10. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

    Messages:
    1,616
    Positive Ratings:
    1,270
    Without letting this thread derail into flaming, here's the reasoning.
    Mapping is a visual art, among other things.
    A diagnostic of a map may be made very quickly through screenshots. You'd be surprised how much feedback you can get on a SINGLE picture.
    Another unspoken rule of mapping is "ideas are cheap, but mapping talent rare." An idea's merit in mapping is judged by the implementation of said idea. A stupid sounding idea, such as companion cube soccer, may be judged to be quite fun on playtesting. That said, we're just trying to be helpful, and sort of expect to meet other mappers halfway in the form of provided pics.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  11. Vicenti

    Vicenti L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    52
    Positive Ratings:
    1
    Standing on the engine doesn't move the train. Standing on the flatcar does.

    Somehow that doesn't seem right :)

    Interesting idea though. Want to see more, I do.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  12. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    Allow me to start over if I may.

    Stubby, I apologize if I came off harsh but it was a bit of a shock to get two of the same comment instead of... well any other comment on what I had actually wrote. I know words don't make a map, but a back story sure does make it interesting.

    There is not a Sticky for the WIP forum explaining any necessary elements to a WIP post. Maybe there should be. If its a TF2 map and its in progress, I think it warrants a WIP post. I was unaware of the no pics no clicks rule of thumb. But I understand it for maps that are looking to get played on. I am familiar with your "average WIP post". Thats why I put a place for images once I get them. I have to agree with Chilly on the "just don't respond" method. Then if someone that is not familiar with everyone wanting pictures says "Why no responses?" You can nicely suggest that they post pictures per the norm.

    Again I did not ask anyone to download the earlier version of my map. I admit there was flaws but thats because it is an early build, it was broke. Its the only one I have uploaded right now. I simply posted it for any interested in being able to run around to see the layout. Pictures will be coming soon.

    I do not want to start bad blood and I hope I didn't piss anyone off to bad. I've tried on other sites and getting a group together to test a map is a pain in the a**.

    {Big Hugs}

    -Bobby
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  13. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    This is definitely part of the map I want to play with. Because most of the players will be riding the flatcar, I made that the payload. It looked odd just a flatcar moving by itself so in came the engine.

    It was also mentioned that the engine blocked most of the forward defense, it will be interesting if this comes into play but if needed it will get changed.

    Thank you everyone so far for posting your thoughts.

    -Bobby
     
  14. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,429
    Positive Ratings:
    3,515
    Early criticisms usually come in the form of gameplay advice and recommendations. This, dooes mean screen shots are somewhat of a requirement; which makes it difficult for anyone to recommend courses of actions for you without said images.

    Your first advisements would be to iron out distances and layout for optimisation and gameplay purposes. Consider an sg's range significantly, though you have already said the engineer class is being critically considered. Height is also a major "fun" factor of TF2 gameplay. Creating legdes is never a bad thing.

    Since this is a subway lighting will be a top priority, it's a very important part of TF2 that classes and team colours are recognised. Create plenty of oppotunities for lighting sources.

    So not to have a monotonouse map, it may be wise to have the attacking team enter the tunnel from stage 1 or exit at stage 3 (or possibly the mid stage could have a collapsed roof exposing the sky over one of your cp's). I fear a completely underground environment may bore players visually, and entering/exiting a subway gives you the oppotunity to wow players with a quality skybox of sorts.

    It is good to have the pl track wind, a horse shoe track shape is a sensible layout and allows for better optimisation. You may also create tunnels short cutting the track route, it is a good idea to have a route other than the pl track itself. pl_goldrush stage 3 suffers from this problem. Allow players to flank the track.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  15. stubby

    stubby L1: Registered

    Messages:
    22
    Positive Ratings:
    2
    lol im sorry for getting in your face about it.

    at least your map has a backstory thought. i just throw some brushes at my computer and call it a map.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  16. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    Bump, Added pics and link to Alpha 2

    -Bobby
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  17. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

    Messages:
    1,616
    Positive Ratings:
    1,270
    Thanks for resolving it nicely, fellahs.

    The map idea is really cool. I like it. But as grazr said, turns in the path give pl its dynamic nature. Otherwise snipers can be overpowered, soldiers too etc. etc. I'd say give it a twist in the track every 512 units or so. I will be watching this, I want to see how the gameplay turns out. It looks to be fun.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  18. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    Alpha 3 Uploaded and ready for gamenight.

    -Bobby
     
  19. ryodoan

    ryodoan Resident Bum

    Messages:
    409
    Positive Ratings:
    58
    ^ This sounds like a great idea.
     
  20. bobby1211

    bobby1211 L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    I brainstorm about my map a lot. It is usually on my mind when I lay down to go to bed (mostly because I was just up 'til 2am working on it), Last night I had an awesome idea that I hope to implement on my map.

    I might make it 4 stages or keep it at 3 but the Alpha 3 build will probably end up stage 2.

    Here is my idea:

    Stage one: Blue starts at ground level with the bomb (maybe on a train car above ground? in the back of a pickup?) and they escort it down into the Sub Station onto the flatcar.

    Stage Two/Three: Blue escorts the train through the tunnels

    Stage Four: Blue escorts the bomb off of the flatcar deeper into the Station to "deliver" it to the Red Base.

    I'm excited though I am not 100% on implementing this. I don't know if I can change the tracktrain per round other then creating replicas and respawning into the other stage (might be the easiest route)

    /My Morning Mind Dump

    -Bobby