Here's the stv from the pug tonight on your map. I think Stalin will be posting more detailed feedback in a bit. I enjoyed playing the map.
http://www.mediafire.com/?41c5c30cwr5acvc
http://www.mediafire.com/?41c5c30cwr5acvc
- Thread starter fubarFX
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koth_vanguard_b3 feedback time! Got lots of feedback for this one!
1. After playtesting, the moving of the health pack on the upper ledge wasn't as good of an idea as we first thought. Most regretted moving the pack up after today's playtest, and would prefer the old position as it punished EVERYONE, not just the medic. To keep the same idea, one player suggested that you place a health pill where the medium is now and move the medium to where the small health pill is now.
2. For this second playtest, we've come to the point where the only way we can bring balance to the map in general if the mid is not only wider and longer, but the map is in an hourglass figure as well. We even purposely ran Heavy to make sure. Scorpio Uprising says that in order to properly fix this, you should start by increasing the length and width of the mid area by 256 hammer units. On top of this, Healbot (aka Mike d:]) felt that in order to make this map better, it should be more hourglass shaped. A good place to start would be here, where the soldier and medic combo usually holds. He suggested that you make this area wider and change that slope on the left side to be a ledge, so scouts couldn't dance on that slope and avoid explosive damage (story for another time).
3. It's really easy to not only uber onto the point for the offense, but it's really easy for the defenders to just turn tail and make the enemy team burn their uber and just use their own to counter back in. This problem showed up most often here, which was referred to as a "dead area". Multiple players suggested that you add cover and props here in order to make medics more hesitant to uber, which would also make turning and running not as powerful of an option.
4. These areas should be clipped, for obvious reasons.
5. This area should have more props or a bullet block so that area doesn't eat explosive damage and inadvertently save a target from the damage.
6. We noticed the entrance into the hut onto the right, but it's honestly not a part of a standard rollout so we can't take advantage of it. So after some deliberation, we found an easy way to incorporate it into a rollout. Punch out a hole before the cinderblock pile here and another hole here
7. The closet and ramp area is one of the more difficult parts for us. The bridge shouldn't be accessible by a medic, so either raise the plank or shorten the plank so only a double jumping scout or a jumping soldier/demo can make it on top. The closet should be widened a bit, but this is at your discretion.
Concerning the health kits at mid: After multiple playthroughs, the small health kits around mid (both on ground level and in the closet areas) are easily accessible by both teams, so a scout or jumping soldier/demo can just claim two or more of them. The only way to effectively stop this is to just spam explosives and bullets as fast as you can around the health kits, and because of this, there's no real deathmatching outside of the initial fight on the middle point or need to move forward in order to pick off stragglers. Nor is there any real reason to jump out and try to suicide into the enemy medic in order to have uber advantage when you can just uber in and have the enemy team pull back, and then they come in with their uber and your team runs back and both teams go back to spamming while waiting for the next ubercharge. We hope to provide good suggestions so that it's not just mindless shooting at health kits.
Regardless of our comments and suggestions, we still enjoyed the map. I personally hope that we can provide you with the feedback you need to make a good KOTH map, as actual diversity and depth in TF2 doesn't revolve around weapons or cosmetic items, but the maps we play the game on.
P.S. - Can YOU find the soldier?
1. After playtesting, the moving of the health pack on the upper ledge wasn't as good of an idea as we first thought. Most regretted moving the pack up after today's playtest, and would prefer the old position as it punished EVERYONE, not just the medic. To keep the same idea, one player suggested that you place a health pill where the medium is now and move the medium to where the small health pill is now.
2. For this second playtest, we've come to the point where the only way we can bring balance to the map in general if the mid is not only wider and longer, but the map is in an hourglass figure as well. We even purposely ran Heavy to make sure. Scorpio Uprising says that in order to properly fix this, you should start by increasing the length and width of the mid area by 256 hammer units. On top of this, Healbot (aka Mike d:]) felt that in order to make this map better, it should be more hourglass shaped. A good place to start would be here, where the soldier and medic combo usually holds. He suggested that you make this area wider and change that slope on the left side to be a ledge, so scouts couldn't dance on that slope and avoid explosive damage (story for another time).
3. It's really easy to not only uber onto the point for the offense, but it's really easy for the defenders to just turn tail and make the enemy team burn their uber and just use their own to counter back in. This problem showed up most often here, which was referred to as a "dead area". Multiple players suggested that you add cover and props here in order to make medics more hesitant to uber, which would also make turning and running not as powerful of an option.
4. These areas should be clipped, for obvious reasons.
5. This area should have more props or a bullet block so that area doesn't eat explosive damage and inadvertently save a target from the damage.
6. We noticed the entrance into the hut onto the right, but it's honestly not a part of a standard rollout so we can't take advantage of it. So after some deliberation, we found an easy way to incorporate it into a rollout. Punch out a hole before the cinderblock pile here and another hole here
7. The closet and ramp area is one of the more difficult parts for us. The bridge shouldn't be accessible by a medic, so either raise the plank or shorten the plank so only a double jumping scout or a jumping soldier/demo can make it on top. The closet should be widened a bit, but this is at your discretion.
Concerning the health kits at mid: After multiple playthroughs, the small health kits around mid (both on ground level and in the closet areas) are easily accessible by both teams, so a scout or jumping soldier/demo can just claim two or more of them. The only way to effectively stop this is to just spam explosives and bullets as fast as you can around the health kits, and because of this, there's no real deathmatching outside of the initial fight on the middle point or need to move forward in order to pick off stragglers. Nor is there any real reason to jump out and try to suicide into the enemy medic in order to have uber advantage when you can just uber in and have the enemy team pull back, and then they come in with their uber and your team runs back and both teams go back to spamming while waiting for the next ubercharge. We hope to provide good suggestions so that it's not just mindless shooting at health kits.
Regardless of our comments and suggestions, we still enjoyed the map. I personally hope that we can provide you with the feedback you need to make a good KOTH map, as actual diversity and depth in TF2 doesn't revolve around weapons or cosmetic items, but the maps we play the game on.
P.S. - Can YOU find the soldier?
I found the soldier! Do I win a prize???
On a serious note, your map has alot of potential to finally kill viaduct and I look forward to seeing where you go with it.
On a serious note, your map has alot of potential to finally kill viaduct and I look forward to seeing where you go with it.
thanks for the feedback guys
the initial idea was to make the whole map a one way to mid. that's why pushing beyond mid is usually punishing. that as proven to be a very good way of preventing spawncamping in pub plays but I see it makes falling back a valid tactic in 6s. not sure what to do with that tbh. so yeah, I guess making medics hold on to their ubers is the way to go to make this work. surely, adding cover should help but thinking about it, being able to easily take control of the health at the mid seems like an easy way to make a good uberless push so I really don't know what to make of this :\
cutting access to the plank seems like a good idea. not only for medics but for heavies as well
haven't quite made my mind on the changes to implement yet but I'll mess around with it and see what happens
the initial idea was to make the whole map a one way to mid. that's why pushing beyond mid is usually punishing. that as proven to be a very good way of preventing spawncamping in pub plays but I see it makes falling back a valid tactic in 6s. not sure what to do with that tbh. so yeah, I guess making medics hold on to their ubers is the way to go to make this work. surely, adding cover should help but thinking about it, being able to easily take control of the health at the mid seems like an easy way to make a good uberless push so I really don't know what to make of this :\
cutting access to the plank seems like a good idea. not only for medics but for heavies as well
haven't quite made my mind on the changes to implement yet but I'll mess around with it and see what happens
We pugged your map again tonight, here's the stv: http://www.mediafire.com/?abf7wk64jkghsfa
There wasn't really any new criticism, people generally had a good time pugging it.
There wasn't really any new criticism, people generally had a good time pugging it.
people had very mixed feelings at 2nd. it feels unfinished and maybe too open, probably with too many routes.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/ThePrestige/screenshot/540652348021142026 thought this ramp could be removed so it'd be a dropdown/soldierspamdownarea and much harder for blu. blu would have to flank it somehow. also clip that rock on the other side of 2nd so it's a bit easier to jump up.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/ThePrestige/screenshot/540652348021142026 thought this ramp could be removed so it'd be a dropdown/soldierspamdownarea and much harder for blu. blu would have to flank it somehow. also clip that rock on the other side of 2nd so it's a bit easier to jump up.
I'll be honest here, I have no idea where this cp version is going. atm, I don't even have a good grasp of the layout myself. I've never been so clueless in map making. I guess the map "works" but I have no idea where I want to take this.
I think I need to play it a lot more before I can do anything
good suggestion prestige, ramp might go. the rock will be replaced by something else.
and terwonick, I guess that's a good thing. no offence taken
I think I need to play it a lot more before I can do anything
good suggestion prestige, ramp might go. the rock will be replaced by something else.
and terwonick, I guess that's a good thing. no offence taken
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Played the koth version tonight, was fun. Here's the stv: http://www.mediafire.com/?kot4gx3sca9wl3d
bob+M|M+
L6: Sharp Member
- Mar 31, 2008
- 346
- 394
played cp_vanguard_a3 for the first time in the inpromtu gameday today. The gameplay around mid and leading to the 2nd/4th is excellent. There's always the sense of real options at all times, which is one of the #1 gameplay elements that makes a good map. kudos to you on that.
contrary to what people were saying, the scaling seems fine.
The 2nd and 4th point could use a little more tweaking, but other than that you have a solid map on your hands.
I didn't get to see the last point in action too much. will have to play more.
hope to see this map more often on some servers!
contrary to what people were saying, the scaling seems fine.
The 2nd and 4th point could use a little more tweaking, but other than that you have a solid map on your hands.
I didn't get to see the last point in action too much. will have to play more.
hope to see this map more often on some servers!
yeah I think the layout is pretty solid atm. I'm fairly happy with the mid and 2nd points but I have some scaling tweaks to do and some sightlines to fix. I will mess around with the last point as well. The layout is decent but I think it could be a lot better
Nine and I have been poking around in the back-end of the site, but this is the only page I've seen this happen on.