The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers: A Community / Valve Discussion

Fruity Snacks

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Suppose it's worth mentioning here, but there have been some rumors of a map workshop possibly coming in the near future (Valve time). We should hear more about it soon.

It's been known for a while that they have been working on the workshop, but this would potentially be the first time they announce it publically.
 
Sep 19, 2010
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So we'll be getting all the competitive maps again.

EDIT: And Suijin
Isn't that a good thing? I understand that not all players map for competitive, but typically maps that play well in comp also play well in pubs. Plus, with matchmaking on the horizon, I don't see any reason for Valve not to go in that direction.
 

Fruity Snacks

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Isn't that a good thing? I understand that not all players map for competitive, but typically maps that play well in comp also play well in pubs. Plus, with matchmaking on the horizon, I don't see any reason for Valve not to go in that direction.

My issue with comp maps is that, at least from my perspective, all formulaic and similar. Very minimal variance in gameplay, and not much is explored in what could be 'fun.' Bridge-like mid (or granary), spire-like 2nd, rectangular finale with raised sides. Look at the top 3-4 5CP maps on the workshop right now (Glassworks, Sunshine, Metalworks ... Sorry Crash). They're competitive, and they all do that. Look at custom maps that are official, Gullywash, Process, same thing.

Yes, it's a good thing because they play well, but it's bad because it's virtually the same type of gameplay over and over, just a different skin and some changes here and there.

I do fully understand WHY this is though, and I do not disagree with the logic as why it's happening. Though, as someone who wants to actually see new stuff, innovation and pushing the limits of mapping, it's very frustrating.


Now, I'm sure that a competitive player will come in and tell me how wrong I am, but this is how I see it, and what I understand of it with my experience in the competitive scene.
 

worMatty

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I should think Valve would be looking for innovative maps that are different to what the game already has. Robot Destruction might be a good category to make maps for, seeing as there is only one official RD map at present.
 

Fruity Snacks

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That's right, but I think (hope) that valve would also add non-5cp maps, and those have a lot more variation (Borneo is rather high-ranked, and is one of my favorites, and also quite innovative)

I liked borneo except the lighting. It was pretty flat last I played it.
 

EArkham

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My issue with comp maps is that, at least from my perspective, all formulaic and similar. Very minimal variance in gameplay, and not much is explored in what could be 'fun.' Bridge-like mid (or granary), spire-like 2nd, rectangular finale with raised sides.

That's because competitive is NEVER about the map. It's about the comp meta.

For a mapper, it's ALWAYS about the map. How can I make this play interesting? How can I make this location beautiful? Will all classes have a role to play on this map? Etc.

For competitive, it's always about a very specific metagame of TEAM ONE versus TEAM TWO. Period. The map is at best "not in the way."

If you're mapping for comp, you are always, always subservient to the "TEAM ONE vs TEAM TWO" metagame. Maps are secondary to letting the players showcase what they can do in a coordinated fight. The map could be a series of undetailed rooms and halls and a comp team would be 100% fine with it as long as it lets their teamwork and deathmatching shine.

If you're mapping for TF2 as Valve's game, then everything is equally important. Every class, and every aesthetic. Maps are there to promote the story and world of the game just as much as provide a balanced unique and new experience for whatever playstyle or class a player chooses to play for the duration of the map.

Side note, I love borneo. I think it's both beautiful and pretty well balanced (last was a bit of a mess a few verisons ago, but latest looks better). Pretty much fine with that rainy flat lighting it has, heh.
 
Sep 19, 2010
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If you're mapping for TF2 as Valve's game, then everything is equally important. Every class, and every aesthetic. Maps are there to promote the story and world of the game just as much as provide a balanced unique and new experience for whatever playstyle or class a player chooses to play for the duration of the map.
By "Valve's game" do you mean 12v12? The last community maps I can think of that were made official include cp_process, cp_gullywash, and cp_snakewater, all maps played in competitive.

I am all for innovation and pushing the envelope, and hopefully the workshop shows that Valve is more open to this sort of thing. In the past they haven't been as receptive to custom game modes (most recently cp_snowplow).

I know we as a mapping community encourage new ideas, but it seems those fall flat when brought to the public (Special Delivery/Robot Destruction). There are thousands of people who seem content to play 24/7 "insert map here" servers.

Like I said, I love new, fresh ideas when it comes to mapping, but sometimes people just want to play what's familiar to them. Maybe if Valve showed they were more open to different maps, less people would be mapping for 5CP. As of right now, it seems aiming your map towards competitive gives it the best chance at getting in the game.
 

Pocket

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For competitive, it's always about a very specific metagame of TEAM ONE versus TEAM TWO. Period. The map is at best "not in the way."
That certainly explains why MOBAs, where there barely is a map, just a few paths and some guff in between, are so popular with competitive players and basically no one else.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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Borneo? more like Boreneo.

(It's not that bad, I quite like it in fact, but I couldn't resist the pun)

I feel like the people trying new things aren't the people that are best suited to pulling them off, and the people who are, are smart enough to stick with what works because it's a safer bet to making a semi-successful map.

As a community I think we totally and utterly fail miserably to encourage new things and experimentation. I think that is only compounded by how hard it is get the wider non-mapping community engaged with custom maps. Hampered even further by the comp scene's very, very, narrow view on what kinds of maps are good.


We could do a LOT more to encourage it
 
Dec 28, 2014
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My issue with comp maps is that, at least from my perspective, all formulaic and similar. Very minimal variance in gameplay, and not much is explored in what could be 'fun.' Bridge-like mid (or granary), spire-like 2nd, rectangular finale with raised sides. Look at the top 3-4 5CP maps on the workshop right now (Glassworks, Sunshine, Metalworks ... Sorry Crash). They're competitive, and they all do that. Look at custom maps that are official, Gullywash, Process, same thing.

Yes, it's a good thing because they play well, but it's bad because it's virtually the same type of gameplay over and over, just a different skin and some changes here and there.

I do fully understand WHY this is though, and I do not disagree with the logic as why it's happening. Though, as someone who wants to actually see new stuff, innovation and pushing the limits of mapping, it's very frustrating.


Now, I'm sure that a competitive player will come in and tell me how wrong I am, but this is how I see it, and what I understand of it with my experience in the competitive scene.

Yeah you're totally right, 5CP maps for comp do follow a pretty standard design style for the points.

Honestly in an ideal world we see Valve adding both 5CP maps designed for comp and maps for other modes that are more designed to be fun for pubs (and highlander).

Honestly it shouldn't be too hard for Valve to figure out what maps are popular with the comp community. Glassworks, Sunshine and Metalworks are all pretty obvious (and deserving) choices for going official.

Hopefully with the map workshop Valve and the TF2 team will use it to help figure out what non comp focused maps are popular with the community. Personally I would really love to see Valve add some new community payload, CP A/D and KotH maps since those are my 3 favorite modes (and they have all been pretty neglected for a long time (aside from Cactus Canyon).
 

wareya

L420: High Member
Jun 17, 2012
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>The last community maps I can think of that were made official include cp_process, cp_gullywash, and cp_snakewater, all maps played in competitive

Snakewater, process, and standing are all complete wonders of playercount balance. They all play perfectly fine all the way up to 32 players. If anything, accusing valve of not caring about pub play on new maps is senseless at best.

Side note, you guys scream "innovation", but when's the last time that an "innovative" map actually played well outside of obscure tests? It's like the hivemind simultaneously wants interesting maps that do groundbreaking things at the same time as having maps with no flaws that don't have abnormal gameplay. That doesn't happen past the first year and a half of life of a gamemode, I'm sorry, it's literally impossible when early good maps are what define the formula.

Extra side note, snakewater is really not formulaic at all. It's only formulaic in having buffer areas with a rough certain number of paths between control points that have height variation. Wow, it's like, the checklist for having a 5cp map of basic competence!

If you want to make an innovative map, try fixing CTF or PLR. Without significantly altering the gamemode.
 
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