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TF2 Item Whitelist

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Trotim, May 8, 2011.

  1. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    If you pit two Heavies against each other, one using the Minigun and the other using either of the unlocks, the Minigun one always wins.

    I have a hard time seeing the unlocks as anything but straight nerfs to get good Heavies to become bad.

    There is a reason the Brass Beast and the Backburner abbreviate the same way, guys.
     
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  2. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Yes. I'm trying to stop using the brass beast, since i always hated natashya, since i felt it showed such simple disregard for other peoples fun.
     
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  3. Randdalf

    aa Randdalf

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    I tend to play more... tanky? with the Black Box, rather than being heroic soldier leading the day, I'm wittling down their defenses whilst they're finding it harder to wittle down mine. It's a lot slower paced and it's good for well, playing more defensively. I tend to play soldier very much based on splash damage, I'm not the best at aiming in the world, so instead of attempting to hit them directly, I'm always splashing and juggling them about. To be honest, the Black Box doesn't really change how you play so much as your mentality when playing. You'll be less eager to go forward, but better at absorbing pressure.

    I think the GRUs are slightly advantageous, you might say, but I really like the playstyle. Rather than lumbering around after everyone, I can be the forefront of attacks and respond more quickly. Unless you have a medic though, the GRU tactic is often not as effective, because you have to go around hoovering up health packs away from your team, and that restricts your movement somewhat. I think the Sandvich is fine as it is, because there's a choice: do you take the 150 health or do you go to full health. Obviously it's sometimes a no-brainer, and maybe the Sandvich should restore less health on drop to its owner. However, being able to support my medic is vital, and if you're a lone heavy, the Sandvich really does assist in your survival - especially in the current climate where Heavies are very much the class people target most. I really like the GRU/Sandvich play style, and whilst it's obviously a deviation from what the Heavy "should" be, and probably OP, I don't think it needs to be nerfed into oblivion because it's really fun. GRU/Sandvich has revitalised Heavy for me as a class because I feel more active.

    On Bushwacka/Jarate, I have to admit, I haven't owned a Bushwacka for months. I do feel though that Snipers needed better self-defense - it's far too easy to just do the electric boogaloo in front of a sniper dodging his shots and then getting an easy kill. It's also very annoying when this happens to you as sniper, and giving them more defensive capability is a good thing in my mind.

    Skullcutter is obviously not a very exciting weapon, but it meshes very well with sticky jumping, as you've got a higher damage output from melee, but probably less health.

    I think one thing that has to be remembered when discussing weapons is that Valve want to broaden classes beyond their traditional roles, and create sub classes such as the Demo knight, the Fez Spy, etc. The inclusion of sets helps reinforce these roles (although bonuses are very questionable still), and like it or lump it, we're probably getting another 5 class sets (minimum!) at the end of the Saxxy Awards (going by leaked info). Certain sets I don't see a place in the game for (aka the mainly terrible Aussie Xmas sets), but I welcome more, if they create interesting sub classes (again, which Aussie Xmas did not). Fez Spy is probably one of the most interesting things to happen to the game in recent updates, and it's a fair demonstration of how sets can be made to work.

    That's my view on things, but it all really depends on how you like to play.
     
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  4. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    The Minigun was fine before all the unwarranted buffs, I stand by that, so straight nerfs to Heavy I'd be fine with, nerfs that require Heavy to have more skill would be more ideal though. Heck I dare to say Natascha and Brass Beast are fine while the Minigun isn't.

    @Randdalf:
    A defensive, more tanky rocket launcher would make sense but the Black Box doesn't even do that. You can still play offensively with it just as well if not even better because it's not like the self-heal stops when you get healed by a Medic or anything. Wouldn't the normal RL give you more chances when you have bad aim anyway? You have one more rocket after all before you need a full reload.
    Now the problem is that when you turn the Black Box into anything even more defensive, you will probably end up with a pure camping/spamming rocket launcher and the BB is already dangerously close to that. The regular RL is good at these already too so I'm not sure if going into a more defensive direction is even possible while keeping it fun.
    Either way I find 3 rockets and +15hp on hit doesn't fulfill that goal. You said it yourself, the only thing changing is the mentality - you got this random unlock and then make yourself use it. There was no need for it beforehand so it may as well not exist. The regular RL can be played defensively too so I don't see its niche except as a crutch, to be frank.

    So would you still use the GRU with 12/s health drain or not?
    Either way, all these faster unlocks revitalising Heavy as class is just... honestly I can see your point just fine but making Heavy faster was never the way to go I think, especially in retrospect. I miss the old positioning-based Heavy that defended and held areas and clearly tanked the most damage. What's the point of having multiple classes when in the end you make them all more like other classes? Heavy was supposed to be the slow class. If you dislike the slow Heavy, that's okay, there are eight other classes that are all faster. Making the strong, healthy Heavy fast too was pure overkill and I feel the GRU, spin-up time buff and Sandvich M2 buff did nothing but break the class.
    Frankly in their current incarnations I wouldn't want to add the Sandvich and GRU to our "TF2M item whitelist". They could work with tweaks but they've become so predominant it'd take a ban to make players realize what other unlocks they have (remember when people complained the KGB are too strong?).
    There are other ways of making Heavy more interesting to play than making him get to the frontline quicker, I'd imagine.

    More defensive capability for Sniper, huh. Taking Jarate as your Secondary and then complaining about not enough defensive capability is like Soldiers complaining about constantly running out of ammo with the Gunboats. The SMG exists and many Snipers fail to realize that.
    Sure in my opinion the SMG could use a buff too (as Jarate is simply way more useful in most situations) and that causes that to happen and the SMG to be forgotten but the Bushwacka... is there any reason not to use it anyway? The Shiv is a joke and the Kukri pretty much the same without "crits when it would minicrit". The higher fire vulnerability only matters against the Flare Gun and slightly when you have afterburn but frankly allowing Snipers to instagib people at melee range (Pyro, Spy) I don't agree with.

    Okay what I failed to mention when talking about the Skullcutter: Why are you meleeing right after a sticky jump anyway? You can still shoot stickies from above and they deal more damage than any melee weapon you have, so... honestly the change in playstyle is nonexistant again. Yeah it's slightly better when you're in melee range and somehow your opponent can't escape but it's so freaking similar and comparable I feel nobody would complain if it didn't exist.

    Broadening classes beyond their traditional roles... to be fair I don't even mind the Targe, its only problem is the fact it's vastly inferior to the SL. It's easy to see, easy to understand, can be used offensively as well as defensively and synergizes pretty well with melee weapons (though the Demo only has 3 good ones - Bottle, Eyelander, Caber). Most importantly though it doesn't infringe on the role of any other class except maybe Pyro (because of high melee damage) but any competent Pyro can tell you running straight into enemies is what they should NOT do.
    I'm okay with the Targe.

    The Fez Spy... I only ever saw any in the beta and silencing uncloak is once again just getting rid of a weakness that defined their move. It's lame. It's like giving Heavy a very fast spin-up time (oops).
    The Eternal Reward is a good Spy knife unlock, don't get me wrong. L'etranger... has potential, is one of these overly similar unlocks though. But the Fez set bonus (ignoring the fact set bonuses are terrible anyway) is not good and I don't like it. Reducing cloak volume is silly and doesn't reward people for consciously listening to cloaking sounds, something a lot of players actually like doing. It lowers everyone's skill ceiling, basically. I had to look up "0.5 sec longer Cloak blink time" because I forgot its downside... it's hardly ever noticeable. Oh I know why - Fez Spies use the Dead Ringer which completely nullifies that downside. :I
    What's so interesting about the Fez Spy? I don't really see it. The only interesting part is the YER that can clearly live without the set bonus.
     
  5. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I'm not saying the Heavy is a good class or a hard class or anything, just saying that in terms of playing well, using a primary unlock is silly. I play Heavy because I am bad and lazy, not because I want to impress people, so I know.
     
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  6. Randdalf

    aa Randdalf

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    Heh, I dunno, I just found Fez Spy more fun to play than normal Spy. The main thing that's different with it is that you can't disguise, and that's a huge paradigm change, so you're forced to play well... more like a spy? Removing the need to disguise constantly and managing that takes away depth from the class I suppose, but I'm not a 24/7 master spy, it's fun now and then.

    To be fair, I don't actually use melee weapons very much, I was just trying to justify why I use the Skullcutter (which I have been using less and less of recently).

    Aaaanddd that's a good point you make about the SMG, I don't really have a good response there. To be honest, I don't think I've used the SMG since like... forever.
     
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  7. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    A random note I don't wanna forget but didn't know where else to put:
    Of 93 weapons in TF2 (stock included), 17 are promo weapons (18%)
    Of 155 hats + 27 misc items, 40 are promo cosmetics (22%)

    So since people seem to be a bit intimidated by our walls of text (which I feel are needed though), another simple question:
    Do you like reskins of existing weapons like the Iron Curtain and should they be added to the whitelist, why/why not?
     
  8. Prestige

    aa Prestige March 2009: Diagnosed with "The Gay"

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    pretty much this. If i could remove one unlock, it'd be this (or sandvich) due to the popularity of it.
     
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  9. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Reskins? They're fairly ignorable, but i suppose affect gameplay by confusing noobs. I like them, but we're being ruthless here. So OUT.
     
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  10. Wilson

    aa Wilson Founder of Wankhouse

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    Promos are all the same for me, only one i would keep is Iron Curtain as it fits Heavy well as he is gun fanatic and it looks cool, others can be removed all i care.
     
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  11. Prestige

    aa Prestige March 2009: Diagnosed with "The Gay"

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    i dont like the clutter promos bring + how they may destroy my computer's performance.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
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  12. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

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    Concise version:
    Scout: The first scout set, but crit-a-cola could be a nice stand-in for bonk.
    Soldier: Direct Hit, Gunboats, Pan
    Pyro: Degreaser, Flare, Axetinguisher
    Demo: Pan, Targe, Eyelander
    Heavy: Natascha, KGB
    Engy: Wrangler, Frontier Jusice
    Medic: First DLC kit
    Sniper: First DLC kit
    Spy: First DLC kit , minus the dead ringer, substituting Your Eternal Reward (I use ringer but I hate it at the same time :p)

    THERE. DONE. :O
     
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  13. Numerous

    Numerous L3: Member

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    Why stop at unlocks? Plenty of the unlocks were meant to encourage people to move away from the defaults and their inherent issues (eg loch n load, demospam, SR, blowing up stickybombs in midair, sniper rifle, "2fort battlement garden party").

    I'm predicting people to rage somewhat over the above statement, so could people in general please remember I'm not saying that they're OMG OP, just that (for example) demospam is generally annoying. Also, valve explicitly explained the reasons for the huntsman in their blog (which is basically saying the same thing as me in terms of sniper rifle).
     
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  14. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    I kind of agree but afaik there's no way to disallow stock weapons. However it's become quite obvious the stock weapons weren't perfectly balanced either - stock melee weapons too weak, Wrench a bit too slow etc. I'd say after 4 years of TF2 it's obviously become more evident which weapons are useful and which aren't so I wouldn't be opposed to tweaking those either but that's gonna be far far later.

    I guess since the discussion subsided a bit I'll read the thread again and tally which unlocks are the more popular and reasonable to include. Also, reskin weapons don't seem to be very liked overall.
     
  15. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Okay so I made a quick list of the most liked/mentioned unlocks from most to least:

    Kritzkrieg
    Jarate
    Flare Gun
    Gunslinger
    Ubersaw

    Axtinguisher
    Blutsauger
    Equalizer
    Sandvich
    Cloak and Dagger

    Bonk
    Your Eternal Reward
    Buff Banner
    Dead Ringer
    Degreaser
    Backburner
    Gunboats

    Huntsman
    Frontier Justice
    Ambassador
    L'etranger
    KGB
    Direct Hit

    Chargin' Targe
    Eyelander
    Force-a-Nature
    Vita-saw
    Scottish Resistance
    Homewrecker
    GRU

    Powerjack
    Crit-a-Cola
    Brass Beast
    Natascha
    Battalion's Backup
    Sandman
    Black Box
    Razorback

    Crusader's Crossbow
    Amputator
    Sydney Sleeper
    Candy Cane
    Pain Train
    Dalokohs Bar
    Skullcutter
    Bushwacka
    Kunai
    Wrangler

    Now popularity doesn't mean anything and I'm aware a sample size of like ten people doesn't matter but it's a summary of all the lists in here.

    Of the top unlocks the one I find the most peculiar is the Cloak and Dagger. I always thought playing with the IW was a lot more fun, a lot more engaging and yes, a bit harder, but I use the CnD basically only when I want to annoy people and not play seriously. Of all the Spy unlocks the CnD is probably the most boring (to use - L'etranger still shoots people) and again seems like one of these "newbie" unlocks like the Sydney Sleeper that make playing easier but a lot less efficient.
    Now I can see where the CnD can be useful, particularly on more open maps where ammo may be more sparse or in an area where ammo boxes are likely to have been picked up by enemies just before you arrived, so it's less frustrating I suppose.
    Honestly though I feel like a lot of Spy players just go CnD because they don't want to bother playing very well and are instead content with a few kills and a lot slower pace. I'm not even sure how many people still use the normal watch but I'd say it's only about a fifth tops. Did people just forget how good the IW is or do they find it too frustrating or too unreliable? More generally, what makes the CnD such a liked unlock?

    Thinking about it this may have to do with the server running a lot of custom maps which means layouts are unknown and can change rapidly. You can't exactly keep suiciding by making cloak run out halfway through a path just because the mapper failed to account for it (or you missed an ammo box somewhere else). So it may be a kind of TF2M-specific thing, too.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  16. NinjillaX

    NinjillaX L3: Member

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    My personal experience with the CnD was that when it first unlocked, the promise of unlimited cloak sounded awesome. After playing with it for a long while, yes your pace as a spy slows down but I think people forgte how much faster they can move about with the IW. I know I didnt switch back for a long time because I kept thinking ammo would be an issue but once I went back it felt much better. I think people get so used to the CnD that they dont want to switch because they feel they may suck with it. Just a theory :p
     
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  17. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Yeah... pretty much. That's not really a weapon imbalance then though, it's just players not fully evolving/making use of the metagame I guess...

    A more readable list of unlocks in the whitelist (just for having been mentioned) per class from most liked to least:
    Scout - Bonk, FaN, Cola, Sandman, Candy Cane
    Soldier - Equalizer, Buff Banner, Gunboats, Direct Hit, Backup, Black Box, Pain Train
    Pyro - Flare Gun, Axtinguisher, Degreaser, Backburner, Homewrecker, Powerjack
    Demo - Targe, Eyelander, ScoRes, Skullcutter
    Heavy - Sandvich, KGB, GRU, Brass Beast, Natascha
    Engie - Gunslinger, FJ, Wrangler
    Medic - Kritzkrieg, Ubersaw, Blutsauger, Vita-saw, Crossbow, Amputator
    Sniper - Jarate, Huntsman, Razorback, Sleeper, Bushwacka
    Spy - Cloak and Dagger, YER, Dead Ringer, Ambassador, L'etranger, Kunai

    The ones of these I personally really did not want to write down:
    Sandman, Backup, Black Box, Pain Train, Degreaser, Powerjack, Skullcutter, Natascha, Wrangler, Amputator, Razorback, Sleeper, Bushwacka

    I just don't feel they add much. Sandman and Natascha should be quite obvious as they're probably the most frustrating items in the game due to slowing/stunning.
    The Pain Train, Skullcutter, Powerjack, Amputator I all just don't like because they're too similar with a negligible difference to the stock weapon or just useless. I assume the Powerjack and Amputator are in there for the set bonus only?
    The Wrangler is just broken, I'm sorry. Another of the most unliked unlocks as it makes Sentries way too hard to take down with little additional skill required, on top of that it encourages turtling even more.
    Black Box... has already been discussed. Far too popular a weapon it only serves to slow fights down and pretty much punishes or at least discourages rocket jumping.
    Battalion's Backup, where do I start. The effect is not clear visually, it's now too hard to charge amount-wise but too easy to charge mechanically (run into spam for Rage). Even if you do deploy it the difference is negligible though and most of the time it's nothing more than a placebo, except against Kritzkrieg which is not an unlock that needs additional boring counters.
    Razorback should be obvious too. Bad, boring, SMG and Jarate can already fight against seen Spies well enough and unseen Spies killing unaware Snipers is the very definition of the Spy class.
    Bushwacka... giving melee instagibs to the long-range class, I don't get it. Further stops Spy from countering Snipers and just pulls Snipers in the wrong direction altogether. It's not like throwing Jarate is hard or uncommon, either, so it doesn't even count as "skill crit" unlike headshots.
    The Sydney Sleeper... just not needed. Bodyshots are still very possible with the regular rifle and the faster charge rate hardly noticeable. The Sleeper is probably like the CnD in that it's the lazy man's rifle. Even worse though it doesn't even help "bad" players learn to aim better as there's zero incentive for headshots. I could accept it though as it's at least less effective than its counterpart, unlike
    And the Degreaser, that's right. All it is is a Flamethrower+1. You can say Pyro needs help all you want but I will never accept a pure Primary upgrade, especially one as bland as this. On top of that the faster weapon switch looks retarded from your perspective and doesn't allow enemies any time to react to anything you do (which is why weapon switch time exists). Frankly one of the unlocks I dislike the most. Does it change the playstyle at all? Not in the slightest.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
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  18. Turbo Lover

    aa Turbo Lover Fight me under Glasgow Central Station

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    Scout: Nothing.
    Pyro: Degreaser, Axtinguisher, Flare Gun
    Soldier: Equaliser
    Demoman: Loch and Load, Chargin' Targe, Ullapool Caber
    Heavy: Sandvich, GRU, Fists of Steel
    Engineer: Frontier Justice, Wrangler, Gunslinger
    Medic: Blutsauger, Kritzkrieg, Ubersaw, Vita-Saw
    Sniper: Huntsman, Sydney Sleeper, Jarate, Bushwacka
    Spy: Conniver's Kunai, Your Eternal Reward, Dead Ringer

    Why yes, I DID just look at my loadout page.
     
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  19. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Alright I guess there's not much else to say then? Kind of surprises me, but...
     
  20. Pyromancer

    Pyromancer L1: Registered

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    Golden Wrench of course because it's hardly different to the normal wrench gameplay-wise.

    Razorback and Darwin's Danger Shield, neither "overpowered".