would you be kind enough to tell me where it´s possible to build inside?
Hoodoo - likes/dislikes
- Thread starter YM
- Start date
would you be kind enough to tell me where it´s possible to build inside?
My only real gripes about Hoodoo center on the fact that if you're on the defensive, you're likely to stay that way for the (short) duration of the map. It's the only official map I've played where I've watched teams (usually ones I'm on) get boxed into the start area on the first map, getting blasted from all angles and occasionally even getting blown up by stray rockets while attempting to leave the spawn room.
Similarly, if the team that's moving the cart can get it rolling, you've got about two opportunities to stop it on the first map, and one on the second. If they can push through those choke points it's pretty well over. The third map I've rarely had the chance to play on, but those occasions where I have it always ends up the same way: the offense rips through the map, with the defense managing to do little other than slow them until they get to the final point. Once you're there, the balance swings heavily in favor of the defense, having the ability to defend the point from all sides, as well as above and below. At that point it settles into a desperate stalemate, usually with the bomb just a little bit away from the end as time ticks down.
Actually not all that much different from other Payload maps, particularly Badwater Basin.
Similarly, if the team that's moving the cart can get it rolling, you've got about two opportunities to stop it on the first map, and one on the second. If they can push through those choke points it's pretty well over. The third map I've rarely had the chance to play on, but those occasions where I have it always ends up the same way: the offense rips through the map, with the defense managing to do little other than slow them until they get to the final point. Once you're there, the balance swings heavily in favor of the defense, having the ability to defend the point from all sides, as well as above and below. At that point it settles into a desperate stalemate, usually with the bomb just a little bit away from the end as time ticks down.
Actually not all that much different from other Payload maps, particularly Badwater Basin.
The tunnel sections overhang on the 2nd part is probably the biggest problem in my opinion. There are alternate pathways but it still ends up being EXTREMELY difficult to take care of sentries up there and get the cart moving again. If you uber then they will push you to the end of the tunnel, the alternate route simply isn't equitable or noticable enough to be used. When you do use it there are SEVERAL problems.
First off the path leads to a very open section nearby the enemies spawn and you are trying to push the cart that is nearly a whole capture point away then the enemy team is going to engage you fairly often before you get to the tunnel overhang.
Second off going into the tunnel via the opposite side still puts you directly in the line of fire for the sentries that may be posted up there.
Simply put the location of that overhang is extremely easy to defend in anything bigger than a 8v8, often times requiring a double uber to be able to clear it out with just 2 engineers and a heavy up there. I'd recommend adding a bigger window facing out towards the spawn area (other than that tiny little one for snipers that you can only get to via standing on some boxes) that way it would be possible for demomen to shoot into there.
First off the path leads to a very open section nearby the enemies spawn and you are trying to push the cart that is nearly a whole capture point away then the enemy team is going to engage you fairly often before you get to the tunnel overhang.
Second off going into the tunnel via the opposite side still puts you directly in the line of fire for the sentries that may be posted up there.
Simply put the location of that overhang is extremely easy to defend in anything bigger than a 8v8, often times requiring a double uber to be able to clear it out with just 2 engineers and a heavy up there. I'd recommend adding a bigger window facing out towards the spawn area (other than that tiny little one for snipers that you can only get to via standing on some boxes) that way it would be possible for demomen to shoot into there.
Vigilante212
L420: High Member
- Dec 21, 2008
- 481
- 33
IN Soviet Russia Cart moves itself
I just had a thought. Perhaps the reason Hoodoo seems so biased towards defense is because you balanced it for a more skilled crowd than the average pub server. Let me explain: You probably made balance changes based on the feedback from people and servers that had run the map. However, if a person cares enough about custom maps to a) download them, b) play them, and c) give feedback, then their skill level is probably higher than average by virtue of noticing said balance discrepancies, caring enough about them to report them to you, and just not being retarded in general. So we have a situation where people of relatively high skill (and by extension, ability to work as a team) are the primary audience for your map. Your average pubber likely does not have the same ability, leading to stalemates at key defensive positions and generally causing balance problems where formerly there were none.
DISCLAIMER: The above is 100% theorytarding and something I came up with on a lark.
DISCLAIMER: The above is 100% theorytarding and something I came up with on a lark.
TracerDX
L3: Member
- Jun 9, 2009
- 127
- 26
No, you have a valid point. In general at least, cannot say much about the map specifically, as I tend to enjoy it personally, for the most part.
Sgt.Sausage
L420: High Member
- Dec 5, 2008
- 420
- 103
I agree, the only times i reallly have problems are if instant re spawn is on or 32 slot server, i try to play this map only on vanilla servers and when i do i enjoy it alot. Thought i think the changes you have made will help.
iciz
L2: Junior Member
- Mar 17, 2009
- 84
- 60
I tried really hard to give it a fair chance, but I hated it from the start. Cant say exactly why, but I do know every time I joined a server running it, they were always stuck on stage 2-2, and seemed to be going nowhere. Lots of fun. 
Instant re-spawn only increases the problem beyond sanity.
It's also interesting to note that pl_hoodoo is the most unbalanced map ever endorsed by Valve. (see: round win % by team) Yes, part of the blame goes to instant re-spawning servers, but that's a core part of the game now.
Instant re-spawn only increases the problem beyond sanity.It's also interesting to note that pl_hoodoo is the most unbalanced map ever endorsed by Valve. (see: round win % by team) Yes, part of the blame goes to instant re-spawning servers, but that's a core part of the game now.
Round wins per team for a payload map can't be compared to other maps. Blue isn't supposed to make it through all three stages 50% of the time - it's supposed to be difficult to complete.
iciz
L2: Junior Member
- Mar 17, 2009
- 84
- 60
I'm sorry, but that's absurd. I would agree that payload is a difficult game mode to balance, but to suggest that it's suppose to be unbalanced is completely incorrect. Why would Valve then improve the balance on Badwater over there last payload map?
Unless I am mistaken, each stage counts as one round in payload, but even if this is not true we still have Red winning something like 75% of the time. How is this fair to the game mode at all? All Red needs to do is stop Blue from progressing. While Blue needs to push all the way through the map to win. Should Blue not even have a decent chance of winning?
It should be difficult, but not nearly impossible.
You know... I've always assumed that chart was measuring full wins, not sub-rounds (because it's useless as sub-rounds). We need to ask valve which it is...
The 'stats' collect a total win/loss so if red win stage 1, thats a win for them, if they win stage 2 thats a win for them, if they win stage 3, thats a win for them. only if they lose stage 3 do blue get a win. So... if you balance all of your stages properly, ie 50/50 each stage (which i'm not sure is the best way to go about it) you end up with red winning faaar more than blue. I however went for an overall 50/50 ratio. which i accieved.
See here - http://psychostats.canardpc.com/map.php?id=47 two hundred and twenty nine games says my map is perfectly (statisticly) balanced on a 24 man unmodded server with half inteligent regulars.
Case closed.
The official stats take into account fail servers (other wise known as modded servers, 32 man servers or instant respawn servers) because there are a lot of those it reflects badly in the stats. I did however see fit to do some modifications to it regardless of my satisfaction with the statistical balance.
The stat page shows a win for blue only if they make it through all three stages. This causes the stats page to show A/D maps as more Red friendly than they really are.
You see, if blue makes it through 0, 1, or 2 rounds, it counts as a Red win. So it actually makes perfect sense that Red would "win" far, far more than Blue according to the stats page. If Blue team makes it up to stage 3 and can't complete it, that's totally normal. And that happens all the time.
Just because completing all three stages is very difficult doesn't mean it's "unbalanced." Unbalanced means one team doesn't have a fair chance of winning.
edit: youme ninja posted.
You see, if blue makes it through 0, 1, or 2 rounds, it counts as a Red win. So it actually makes perfect sense that Red would "win" far, far more than Blue according to the stats page. If Blue team makes it up to stage 3 and can't complete it, that's totally normal. And that happens all the time.
Just because completing all three stages is very difficult doesn't mean it's "unbalanced." Unbalanced means one team doesn't have a fair chance of winning.
edit: youme ninja posted.
Last edited:
Perhaps I am late but I have some feedback for Hoodoo:
1- In the final part, after you capture the first point, there isn´t much incentive to play engineer in the blue team since the shortcut become available.
2-It was probably mentioned already but the final part is often hard to capture, this includes both the first and the final point.
3- In the second part of the map, after blue capture the first point, there isn´t much incentive to play sniper in the red team since blue usually take control of the tunel.
4-In the first part of the map you could add some ammo in the house near the last point to help both engineers and spies.
Hope this will help
1- In the final part, after you capture the first point, there isn´t much incentive to play engineer in the blue team since the shortcut become available.
2-It was probably mentioned already but the final part is often hard to capture, this includes both the first and the final point.
3- In the second part of the map, after blue capture the first point, there isn´t much incentive to play sniper in the red team since blue usually take control of the tunel.
4-In the first part of the map you could add some ammo in the house near the last point to help both engineers and spies.
Hope this will help