Hoodoo - likes/dislikes

[shdw.puppet]

I play this map alot because it is one of my favorites, but only to defend. I think it is really fair up until the very last objective, right in red spawn. (that and 2-2, but that has had a lot of attention). I have played as blue, doing well for the first two levels and half of the last one only to be shut down by three red sentrys. If I were playing with an actual team instead of a bunch of unorganized noobs, I would be able to uber a nice demo, count on a second uber (pyro??? heavy to take out people??) and win, but this rarely happens. I know it is supposed to be really hard to get the last point, but I play this map almost everyday and I have never been part of a team that has won offense (plenty of defensive wins though).

I think the last objective needs one or two more way in, something that at least puts Blue on the same level as the red defense on both sides.

 

[evanonline]

Can we expect the new Hoodoo in the next TF2 update? I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Waster]

It is already mentioned. It looks much like dustbowl and goldrush. That can be a good or bad thing. I have to say i dont really like hoodoo. In fact the map is one big chokepoint all over the map. Spamming is even more a winning tactic compared to maps as dustbowl and goldrush.

The things that bother me:
* Narrow doorways and narrow passages
* Narrow bridges
* Defenders with height advantage
* One way exits that also favors the defending team

For me the problems already begin with stage 1 cap 1. Often the defending team can spawncamp the attacking team. And this involves the first three points listed above. The attacking team needs to come out of multiple chokes to only enter the battlements. First walk out the spawn through two very small doors and then three a bit wider passages. The open spawn gives snipers the opportunity to headshot the attacking team even in their own spawn. While on the other hand the height advantage provide the defending team from solid spam while all rockets, stickies but especially nades will easily lob into the spawn. While at the same time the defenders are harder to hit by nades, stickies and rockets, because they got height advantage. However the narrow bridges can give the attackers some advantage. You only have to aim for the bridge and you hit two maybe three enemies at the same time. Still the defending team has a massive advantage because of the height advantage.

When playing this stage i always say to the medics of my team to uber directly (me or someone else) when the doors open after setup-time. Otherwise half of team dies in the respawn in the first 30 seconds. And at this point it is almost impossible to regroup in your own respawn (!). So most of the time i try to push them back with an uber and make it possible for the rest of the team to walk out of the spawn. But i hope you get my point. It is not fun to be unable to regroup as team in your own respawn.

Now let's take a closer look at stage 1 cap 2. While it looks like an open and large battlements, maybe as wide as those in dustbowl, practically it's not. In the sense of gameplay. Who wants to be in the hole near the last point anyway? No one. So there is very little room for good battlements left. Everybody wants to be on the bridge with the cart or the edges.

Stage 2 cap 1 is made easy for the attackers in my opinion. Defense got a slight height advantage, but there are not so many narrow passages or narrow bridges so the first part goes well most of the time. Only the chokepoint right before cap 1 can give attack some trouble, but that is already mentioned before. My real complaint about this stage is the use of the one way exits. One way exits give defending snipers, demos and engies a big advantage. I think thats the reason why nobody takes the sideways.

I dont know why, but stage 3 goes very fast most of the time. Cap 1 looks undefendable. While cap 2 got the same problems as cap 2 of stage 1: there is no room for a real battlement. Another thing that was really frustrating were the two one-way-exits behind each other. When entering the first doorway and you come to the conclusion the other exit is stickied there is no way back at all, which is really frustrating.


I wont say you are a bad mapper. But this are my thoughts about hoodoo and why people may think it is a spamfest or linear/monotone. I think you learned a lot and didnt made the same mistakes in your other map halfacre that has less chokepoints. I really like the map halfacre. I would say hoodoo is more like goldrush and dustbowl and halfacre is more like badwater (yeah, i like badwater too). I am looking forward to more maps like halfacre.


I now try to help you to make hoodoo a better map thought, while not totally remaking it to another map. The first respawn on stage 1 cap 1 doesnt really work. Take a look at goldrush, dustbowl or badwater. They solved it to make two or three completely different exits. You can try to make an exit were you are able to flank the defending team.

Cap 2 can be reworked to remove the hole or make it so its easy to get out of it. Now the stair is the only exit.

On stage 2 your adjustment on the sentry nest would really work. But i still think that the map screams for the suggestions of HojoTheGreat. There really needs to be a sideway to the sentryspot:

For the last point i think the sideway will be used more when removing the stairs and the one way exit:

On stage 3, remove the one way exits, because they really annoy me. And just make all the ways and exits bigger. I think the problem with this stage is red doesnt really have room for defense. One good push for blue and red already loses the first point. For the second point i would suggest the same as with stage 1. Reduce the holes and red can set up a better defense.

 

[StoneFrog]

I'm not a particularly frequent hoodoo player and I fear I can't give you many good examples, but for the attackers I feel the map is too "head-on", especially in stages 1 and 2.

For instance, the beginning of stage 2(?) has the attackers on the low ground pushing their cart upwards, whilst the entire left side of the map is covered in elevated buildings from which the defenders can attack. There is almost nothing of interest on the right side of that area of the map, and it is impossible to flank.

This continues after exiting the tunnel, where defenders can still easily cover the exits on their own. Has to be another pathway for the attackers to allow them to get behind the defenders, or at least bring them to the same X/Y axis that the health pickup is located on.

That's about it. Sorry I can't give better examples but it's more of a concept than a specific point in the map. Payload maps often have major pathways and suffer from lack of other paths. Stage 3 is alright if you ask me, but the previous two need more player circulation.

Otherwise, I find the map pretty enjoyable. Whatever modifications you choose to pursue, I wish you the best of luck with them.

 

[Ezekel]

this might just be me, but one thing thats often bugged me about the final stage is the explosion.
what exactly is getting destroyed and why?
excluding pipeline, all valve payloads have a good explosion. to top that off, the bulk of the good custom payloads pay attention to a good explosion too (e.g. frontier and swift/swiftwater)

beyond that, i also get confused by the gate in round3 - are you only allowed to use it during setup phase?

finally, asthetically: you use those office doors on the outside of buildings (the ones called "cp_bloodstained" or something like that). it just seems out of place to see these on the outside of a wooden building.

edit:
oh yeh, before i forget
final red spawn - the ramps down to the doors aren't covered by a respawnroom area. a lot of people get caught out by this, as there's no clear definition for the boundary of the respawnroom area

 

[Queops]

It is already mentioned. It looks much like dustbowl and goldrush. That can be a good or bad thing. I have to say i dont really like hoodoo. In fact the map is one big chokepoint all over the map. Spamming is even more a winning tactic compared to maps as dustbowl and goldrush.

The things that bother me:
* Narrow doorways and narrow passages
* Narrow bridges
* Defenders with height advantage
* One way exits that also favors the defending team

For me the problems already begin with stage 1 cap 1. Often the defending team can spawncamp the attacking team. And this involves the first three points listed above. The attacking team needs to come out of multiple chokes to only enter the battlements. First walk out the spawn through two very small doors and then three a bit wider passages. The open spawn gives snipers the opportunity to headshot the attacking team even in their own spawn. While on the other hand the height advantage provide the defending team from solid spam while all rockets, stickies but especially nades will easily lob into the spawn. While at the same time the defenders are harder to hit by nades, stickies and rockets, because they got height advantage. However the narrow bridges can give the attackers some advantage. You only have to aim for the bridge and you hit two maybe three enemies at the same time. Still the defending team has a massive advantage because of the height advantage.

When playing this stage i always say to the medics of my team to uber directly (me or someone else) when the doors open after setup-time. Otherwise half of team dies in the respawn in the first 30 seconds. And at this point it is almost impossible to regroup in your own respawn (!). So most of the time i try to push them back with an uber and make it possible for the rest of the team to walk out of the spawn. But i hope you get my point. It is not fun to be unable to regroup as team in your own respawn.

Now let's take a closer look at stage 1 cap 2. While it looks like an open and large battlements, maybe as wide as those in dustbowl, practically it's not. In the sense of gameplay. Who wants to be in the hole near the last point anyway? No one. So there is very little room for good battlements left. Everybody wants to be on the bridge with the cart or the edges.

Stage 2 cap 1 is made easy for the attackers in my opinion. Defense got a slight height advantage, but there are not so many narrow passages or narrow bridges so the first part goes well most of the time. Only the chokepoint right before cap 1 can give attack some trouble, but that is already mentioned before. My real complaint about this stage is the use of the one way exits. One way exits give defending snipers, demos and engies a big advantage. I think thats the reason why nobody takes the sideways.

I dont know why, but stage 3 goes very fast most of the time. Cap 1 looks undefendable. While cap 2 got the same problems as cap 2 of stage 1: there is no room for a real battlement. Another thing that was really frustrating were the two one-way-exits behind each other. When entering the first doorway and you come to the conclusion the other exit is stickied there is no way back at all, which is really frustrating.


I wont say you are a bad mapper. But this are my thoughts about hoodoo and why people may think it is a spamfest or linear/monotone. I think you learned a lot and didnt made the same mistakes in your other map halfacre that has less chokepoints. I really like the map halfacre. I would say hoodoo is more like goldrush and dustbowl and halfacre is more like badwater (yeah, i like badwater too). I am looking forward to more maps like halfacre.


I now try to help you to make hoodoo a better map thought, while not totally remaking it to another map. The first respawn on stage 1 cap 1 doesnt really work. Take a look at goldrush, dustbowl or badwater. They solved it to make two or three completely different exits. You can try to make an exit were you are able to flank the defending team.

Cap 2 can be reworked to remove the hole or make it so its easy to get out of it. Now the stair is the only exit.

On stage 2 your adjustment on the sentry nest would really work. But i still think that the map screams for the suggestions of HojoTheGreat. There really needs to be a sideway to the sentryspot:

For the last point i think the sideway will be used more when removing the stairs and the one way exit.

On stage 3, remove the one way exits, because they really annoy me. And just make all the ways and exits bigger. I think the problem with this stage is red doesnt really have room for defense. One good push for blue and red already loses the first point. For the second point i would suggest the same as with stage 1. Reduce the holes and red can set up a better defense.

Couldn't agree more with this post.

 

[Dr. Spud]

I think you learned a lot and didnt made the same mistakes in your other map halfacre that has less chokepoints. I really like the map halfacre. I would say hoodoo is more like goldrush and dustbowl and halfacre is more like badwater (yeah, i like badwater too). I am looking forward to more maps like halfacre.

Dude, hoodoo is 100% better than halfacre. No comparison.

Nothing personal against Waster or anything, but I REALLY don't agree with your post. I agree with some of the points (like sidepaths up to CP 2-2 being under-used and a little meh), but the solutions would just open up more problems. For instance, you can't just delete a one-way door and expect the balance to magically maintain itself... it just doesn't work that way.

 

[Ninjilla]

Half Acre > Hoodoo

Badwater > Goldrush

derailment sorry :x. I dont see why everyone thinks the last cap is so easy to defend, whenever I play blu wins very often. Once they get past Red's set up's in the first narrow passage, they get a bunch of ways to the other side, like the one way gate.

 

[grazr]

I dunno. I think Waster hit on some pretty valid points.

Pathways are narrow. Too narrow.

The battle is usually an entirely head on affair. Which makes sentry farms a constant issue.

One way gates arn't bad, but shouldn't be used excessively; to the point where they get exploited. Remember, Dustbowl's second stage, one way gate doubles back on itself so it faces the attackers main exits and exits in relatively good visual cover, meaning anyone defending this easily defended chokepoint leaves their flanks incredibly vulnerable. So it's a give so much, take so much circumstance. In hoodoo they seem more like for the sakes of charging up an uber in a relatively safe forward position to take out the inevitable sentry farm. Similarly to when a team gets held up at the one way gate in stage one of Dustbowl. The more a team waits up there to make a multi-uber rush offense, ironicly, i find the less likely they are to win the round. But that is as much to do with retarded players as it is to do with layout design flaws.

I'll have to play it again to remember what really annoys me as it's not a map i play often (I'm actually guilty of being a stock map whore). But the narrow pathways, are certainly one gripe. The map is also cramped and is packed full of detail that it just ends up even more cramped. I catch on everything in the map it's not even funny. It's neigh impossible to walk-fall backwards/retreat-fight as a result, and i would certainly never play scout on it. If the classes arn't balanced the the map shouldn't be finalised. It doesn't take much for an engineer to become overpowered and scouts seem useless. Pyro's arn't balanced despite the general lack of room to manouver (but that's for a number of reasons), and snipers arn't particularly helpful beyond the odd insta-kill kill, during a significant assault/push.

 

[StoneFrog]

this might just be me, but one thing thats often bugged me about the final stage is the explosion.
what exactly is getting destroyed and why?

It's a "dirty bomb". BLU's goal is to irradiate what I can only assume is RED's cache of mined gold, for whatever reason.

I agree with you though, that there needs to be at least SOME pizazz to it. Like, I believe the radioactive barrels are first detonated by a regular explosive, so there should be a damaging radius. Couldn't hurt to put in a highly exaggerated trigger_hurt representing radioactivity, either (even though in the world of TF2 where "Science!" takes precedence over "Science", maybe it shouldn't).

 

[Waif]

Dude, hoodoo is 100% better than halfacre. No comparison.

Nothing personal against Waster or anything, but I REALLY don't agree with your post. I agree with some of the points (like sidepaths up to CP 2-2 being under-used and a little meh), but the solutions would just open up more problems. For instance, you can't just delete a one-way door and expect the balance to magically maintain itself... it just doesn't work that way.

Uh Uh lol. Halfacre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hoodoo in all aspects but optimisation for me. It doesn't feel as cramped, isn't as chokepointy/ spammy and has better flow.

 

[Dr. Spud]

Uh Uh lol. Halfacre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hoodoo in all aspects but optimisation for me. It doesn't feel as cramped, isn't as chokepointy/ spammy and has better flow.

What's with everyone preferring halfacre over hoodoo? Is it a new fad or something?

Honestly, if that map went official you'd change your tune, I guarantee. It's all the spam of hoodoo but in big chokepoints cleverly disguised as outdoors. And it's "flow" is like scaling a mountain compared to hoodoo; it's the only payload map I've played where both teams got stuck at the same area before CP 1-2 and never captured.

/thread hijack.


edit: To try and be more on topic: I think hoodoo's layout is designed well in terms of being interesting and balancing the teams. BUt it could use tweaks to help people know where to go. Part of the reason the map gets so spammy IMO is because blue is being guided down the main path, but you have to "find" the side paths. Take the part between CPs 2-1 and 2-2: Not many people will naturally assume they should run up a ramp, turn around, and go down a long tunnel to find the one-way gate. As a result, hardly anyone goes there (even though they should).

Just one thing I thought of when playing it recently.

 

[Waif]

What's with everyone preferring halfacre over hoodoo? Is it a new fad or something?

Honestly, if that map went official you'd change your tune, I guarantee. It's all the spam of hoodoo but in big chokepoints cleverly disguised as outdoors. And it's "flow" is like scaling a mountain compared to hoodoo. It's the only payload map I've played where both teams got stuck at the same area before CP 1-2 and never captured.

/thread hijack.

Haha yeah we are a bit off topic here, but I play halfacre a fair bit on a 20 slot server, and I honestly think its one of the best custom TF2 maps made at all
Of course it has its issues, such as being a bit sniper/ scout friendly and a touch laggy, but to me Hoodoo feels so cramped- almost awkwarad and claustrophobic...
Plus half acre looks a lot better then hoodoo, I think youme should change a few textures in hoodoo, for example the cliffs surrounding 1-2 are all skined with that horrible repeating rock texture.

 

[crazychicken]

same thing happened with egypt, creator makes map only for normal respawn times. fact is, as shown by all of valve maps, its ok to have a cp clsoe to spawn if the map has enough options to cap it. thats why they still work on fast respawn. if it doesnt work on fast respawn it proves the layout is wrong, i said this in beta but to no avail, and when it went official both maps suck and arent played. problem with hoodoo is the fianl cp is sometimes inside or so close to the base its impossible for blu to cap

hoodoo is way too cramped with no option to cap cps as there arent enough paths that arent easily blocked by 1 or 2 levels 3 sgs. its jsut one massive spam fest and on fast respawn servers its impossible to set anything up so msot of time stages are never won,
all i remember at moment is that
1-2 is too hard to cap because none of the pathways allow buildings to be built that arent easily destropyed by red and snipers are pretty useless too when they are important on pl maps to control the red base
after capping 2-1 (i think) blu should be able to get up the stiars to build tps and stuff.
2-2 is way too narrow and a slow boring grind of spamming constantly
3-2 is just a total mess with nowhere else to go unless ubered and no real places to build anything at all

seems to me the cps are far too close to red spawn throught the entire map and there are no real positions from which to snipe and fire directly at red base which arent blocked visually, the one way gates are infuriating, go through them cant go back so only option is to go forward and die by a sg. plus theres nothing to blow up at then end, its just red spawn

 

[Caliostro]

There is a problem with not making it nobuild. Its a little known fact (as far as I know) that since the spyper update spies can take enemy teleports.. meaning that they can get behind visualisers if an engie decides to grief..
but that does need griefers, and they're dicks anyhow so I dunno.. opinions?

Not necessarily.

Make a second noentry at the actual spawn gate. Tada. Now a spy could take the enemy teleporter, but at most grief the little "hall" outside.


As for problems with Hoodoo... I'll be honest, it's a beautiful but very unbalanced map. It seems you were going for aesthetic over functionality. Well, overall it's a very "closed" map, so my first critic goes to the actual design. Tight linear corridors favor the heavier classes and sentries immensely. I've once held countless waves of enemies almost alone as an heavy in stage 3. The only backup I had was a medic with Kritz (and he died a lot) and the odd red who'd stroll by like a lemming, run off, get killed, respawn after 12 seconds. Every Kritz I'd clear up the entire enemy team cause they had no place to run to. My "streak" finally ended around the third time I finally ran out of ammo.


The first map is the best of all Hoodoos, for all it's "tightness" it starts out pretty open and has a few alternative routes, so all in all, the most balanced. The only problem being how easy it is to get spawn camped right off the bat...

But then at stages 2 and 3 shit hits the fan, hyperdrive mode.

IF you don't get flooded right off the bat in stage 2 (as mentioned above, really should be blocked by "noentry"s) and spawn camped for around a minute, the first part is pretty much a breeze, getting the second spot, on the other hand, is sheer insanity if the other team is at least competent.

First you have that infernal ledge, easy to "nest" to hell and back. 2 or 3 engies stacked there + a heavy (or demo, or pyro, or whatever really since more often than not there'll be an equal number of teleports up there so it'll be constantly "full") can keep an entire team at bay. Spies seldom have a chance against entire nests, specially nests with extra backup of classes constantly spamming (dispensers will provide infinite ammo there). A single uber will not only get stopped a lot on it's way to them by enemies but will also get knocked back against the wall of the tiny ramp which is the only way to get up there, and instantly killed as soon as the uber runs out. The end result is that it takes at least 2 very good ubers or 3 normal ubers to actually take out the bloody nest. There's no other way up there. The "window slot" that you can lob grenades into is too small to allow you to clear anything, and, off course, a suicidal pyro (or demo, or soldier) later and off to start with you. It's a very short dash from their teleport up there into your face.

So basically, huge choke point right before point 1.

How to fix it? Several people have mentioned options. Providing additional means to get to that bloody ledge would help (some guy had a pretty good idea, even did some diagrams and such). Making the window bigger so you can clear a bigger area by lobbing windows/rocket jumping and shooting would also go a long way.

But after that one there's another. Point 2 is no less of a giant pain. You can pretty much place sentries anywhere under the "mine" ledges because a single sentry (let alone two) behind the "rock" left of the tunnel exit is downright unreachable. It fires into the mine as soon as you open the door, so there's really no use for that tunnel. Once you remove that tunnel your options come down to the huge choke point. An extra sentry or two, and the entire rest of your team will provide enough power to hold that.

How to fix that one? First either get something behind that rock so people can't build a sentry there, or make it a bit "deeper" in, so a sentry there can't outreach people just opening the door in the tunnel. That one's just mandatory, because as long as that sentry can singlehandedly block the whole mine, that door might as well not open.

After you make sure someone can actually open that door without being met by heavy sentry fire, I'd suggest taking the tip previously mentioned in giving people additional routes to the mine tunnel.

As for stage 3... Well, the whole thing has 2 problems for both teams: For red it has no good sentry spots except the last one, which is ridiculously overpowered... Ironically. For blue, the whole map is really tight, and, I'm not sure here considering I rarely play stage 3, does that damn red "first" gate stay open for how long? It's a major pain in the ass to be hit from behind with no real way to defend yourself and breaks flow a lot. Honestly don't see the point of that gate, it could justify not forcing red team to go a mile around to defend the first point, but there's another opening a little further ahead if I remember correctly... This one just seems to serve to "backwhack" the cart every other minute...

So major things to fix here would be to remove that gate at the start, and open up the little "house" at the ending, that basically houses a million and two sentries you can't shoot at without getting in their range.

That's pretty much what I can remember off the top of my head.


PS: Don't cater to the "instant respawn" servers, they suck and deserve all the unbalance they get. Any half-decent defense is downright unbreakable on "instant respawn" servers. The problem with Hoodoo, on the other hand, isn't instant respawn, it's the actual design.

 

[Octoplasma]

You could maybe put more ammopacks. Just my opinion though.

 

[eerieone]

what i don´t like at 2nd stage is, that blu can build teleporters where spies can´t get to, so i need to revolver them :/
in any valve map sapping the entrance is always possible

oh, another thingy
stage 2, the building on the right side when you walk out of blu spawn, you should clip the wall better
i always run agains the windowledges and die

 

[Mar]

You could maybe put more ammopacks. Just my opinion though.

But that would let engies build faster and we really don't need more sentry farms.

 

[YM]

what i don´t like at 2nd stage is, that blu can build teleporters where spies can´t get to, so i need to revolver them :/
in any valve map sapping the entrance is always possible

wrong

 

[Psy]

So? It's still plain annoying. If a Spy can get all the way there without being detected he should be rewarded by being able to sap the entrances.