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Engie Rocket Jumping

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Aki, Mar 23, 2012.

  1. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    So, last night I was testing out my helix map, and each side has a satellite dish tower. On a whim I tried to rocket jump up there - I'm pretty good at those but it took me four tries. Once a gun gets built up there it's very exposed, but with a wrangler it can be very boss.

    Any thoughts on balancing unusual sentry placements made possible by rocket jumps?
     
  2. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    There's no way to design a map around the Wrangler, and most good old maps never were either simply because it didn't exist then. I'd say don't worry about it unless the sightline actually is super ridiculous.
     
  3. Wander

    Wander L3: Member

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    You could playerclip them off, or just put a func_nobuild around those places to prevent sentries from being built
     
  4. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    I know how to stop a place from being built on - though I'd rather make it obvious rather than using clips and no builds. On the other hand, I main engie and like fungineering tricks so I'd like to strike a balance between power and difficulty of the jump. That and no spot should be impregnable, rocket jump to it or not.
     
  5. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR I do things sometimes.

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    I know you have stated you are not taking feedback from me again for one reason or another, but gosh darn it, I'm giving it anyways.

    How many people where in your test? (Bots don't count)
    Where in the map is this spot? Near spawns, between mid and spawn, or just mid?

    1. If around spawn/between spawn and mid: Usually, if the engie is going to set up at said stop early, when no enemies are around (easiest way to do it), they basically becomes useless until the sentry range is reached (this is assuming that this spot is near the spawns) and so really I would consider it balanced, he's sacrificing his sentry during early/mid game to have a strong defense (even though it is a bit open)... even though he's making himself SEMI-useless during early/mid game.

    2. If at mid: If the engie can get through the fighting around mid and somehow manage to get a sentry up and then properly wrangle himself up to this spot without dieing or drawing attention to himself, then I'd also call it balanced because the opposing team is blind, or the engineer is RIDICULOUSLY good.

    3. If at mid, but there is no fighting, see 1.

    From the way you are describing it in the post, I'm going to assume that #1 will apply.

    Take that all as you will.
     
  6. Jeremy

    Jeremy L10: Glamorous Member

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    I place nobuilds in moderately high-up, out-of-bounds areas in my map.

    Because you may never know
     
  7. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    It is #1 and I do apologize, I was just - frustrated that night. I was able to salvage some layout ideas from the overscaled version of the map so it wasn't a total loss.

    The towers are directly over the end point of the cart paths. When the cart reaches the end point and explodes it's supposed to destroy the tower, but I'm going to need help programming that. If the engie gets a nest up there the enemy will have to deal with it, but it's very exposed.

    As the map stands now the cart can be ridden the whole time across. The third revision is ever so slightly larger than the first, just enough to allow for cart rides. I should have alpha done this weekend - maybe.
     
  8. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    There really is absolutely nothing wrong with putting nobuild on areas only accessible by rocket jumping.

    Worst case scenario, engy goes "I wonder if I can get a sentry up there," rocket or bullet jumps up there, can't place the sentry, and then thinks, "oh well, was worth a shot."

    Nobuild is frowned upon in the "normal" playable area because it's a horrible horrible thing when you try to place a sentry in an area that looks like it could hold a sentry. Quite a different thing when you have to do something wacky to reach the area in the first place.
     
  9. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    I disagree with this. I guess it's ok on an old map that you don't want to vastly redesign to account for the wrangler, but any new map should account for it. In any event, nobuild is never the way to go. If it's fair for a solly to shoot from, it's fair to put a sentry up there.

    I practiced the jump some, got it down to being consistently able to get up there in one try. To be honest, a sentry is just too exposed up there. A teleporter not so much. If an engie sets his teleporters up there then friendly snipers will fall in love with him - there is just enough cover to protect a teleporter from being sniped.
     
  10. Tarry H Sruman

    aa Tarry H Sruman Large Orphanage Proprietor

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    Why did you ask for advice if you're just going to refuse to follow it?
     
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  11. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Remember that the wrangler's auto-aim and range boosting make it shitty to fight at long range, let alone from a poor defensive position.
     
  12. Freyja

    aa Freyja Unpronounceable map names since 2013

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    Nucleus. Nucleus has the spot above the interior rooms which you can wrangle jump to and then get a view of the entire middle area.

    It's not overpowered, the huge disadvantage to the wrangler is you can only be focusing on one person at a time. Soldiers and demoman can easily take it out.

    Stop worrying about the wranger and just do nothing, seriously. 90% of the time an engie won't even try to get up there, the other 10% it won't be gamebreaking, and if it is, then you don't have enough flanks or cover, and that's the map's problem, not the sentry position.
     
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  13. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    Advising someone to cop out isn't advice.
     
  14. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    Blindly following a mantra like "never use nobuild" isn't map design.

    Nobuild is a tool, not a cop out. It's meant to be used. I don't know if it's appropriate in your map, and I don't care. I'm saying don't be scared to use it because you keep hearing not to use it, or because you think building on a 1 HU clip on the side of a cliff or in the out of bounds area is a "map secret."
     
    ev149, Tarry H Sruman and Fr0Z3nR thanked this.