CP croissant final

[grazr]

The map was too big in height scale aesthetically, very open (although borderline acceptable) and there was an overuse of the concrete texture.

The CP1 orientation was strange and should be moved to a more appropriate position in relation to the defenders spawn. IE defenders of CP1 should spawn behind it, perhaps underneath, but it should be obvious to defenders where CP1 is so that they can defend it when the time comes.

You need more cover in the out doors areas, perhaps reduce the scale of the death pits (comp players hate death pits and comp players mostly play 5CP-push maps, so you're shooting yourself in the foot here). Then generally reduce the sight lines as there are a lot of massive sightlines with sniper ledges at the end of them.

 

[honeymustard]

(comp players hate death pits and comp players mostly play 5CP-push maps, so you're shooting yourself in the foot here).

Not this one.

 

[Wilson]

Let's be fair tough, this is not comp contest so does what comp players hate really matter anyway?
When maps get to be rated, i highly doubt there will be 6v6 comp testing for them, instead there is public tests for them on TF2M server.

 

[ClandestinePz]

Let's be fair tough, this is not comp contest so does what comp players hate really matter anyway?
When maps get to be rated, i highly doubt there will be 6v6 comp testing for them, instead there is public tests for them on TF2M server.

As it happens this map has already been tested in the 6v6 format and the next version will likely be tested as well.

Just because this isn't a competitive contest doesn't mean comp players are irrelevant to this map. People aren't submitting maps to win the $60 steam game. They're submitting maps to try and get them played. The fact is that push maps seem to go mostly unnoticed on pub servers, while the competitive community is in desperate need of new 5cp's (even if the players don't always embrace new custom maps) If I had a choice between my map being played in leagues and my map being a server killer on pubs I'd choose the former. I'm sure, though, that as the author of a fairly successful and in my opinion very good comp map (cp_gullywah) Arnold can appreciate the opinions of the competitive community.

5cp's can only be played to their full potential 6v6. That is why on pubs badlands is only ok, while in comp its pretty much the best map ever. Push maps are far more suited to be played by smaller more organized teams.

Furthermore competitive testing is much more valuable when making balance choices. For one thing it gives the benefit of consistency. I think of map tests as experiments. When you are mapping you hypothesize and make changes based on how you think your map will play and then you run an experiment to see if your hypotheses were correct and if the changes you made worked. It is common knowledge that experiments work better in controlled environments with fewer variables. The stability of the competitive class lineup and the consistency of strategy and tactics helps immensely in that regard. It also has the added benefit of making it easier to predict how the map will play even before its been tested. Theory crafting is much easier when you can imagine common competitive scenarios taking place on your map.

Finally, I've heard a lot of people say that comp players hate deathpits and other environmental hazards, but I think that's a bit of a generalization. Personally I think death pits are fine as long as they are used in a non-gimmicky way. Although I don't think the death pits in this map are all that dangerous at the moment. There is plenty of space to maneuver and there really isn't any reason to get close to the edge (aside from an incredibly inconvenient health pack that seems to be bugged so that only one team could pick it up)

Wow that was much longer than it was supposed to be.

 

[Arnold]

Thanks for the feedback. i'm working on every issue atm, except maybe for being able to spawncamp. which you could do on every 5cp map relatively easily so i don't think that's an issue.

About last point though, why do the defenders have to spawn directly behind the cp? I'm sure players will see the where it is located when they exit spawn. I placed it in the middle because i don't want another typical last cp. I don't want the defenders to hold passively, it's nice having a last cp that can be instacapped or just being a clutch fight. But I don't think that is set in stone.

 

[Wilson]

I wouldn't really say 5cp is not popular in pubs or only badlands is ok 5cp maps in pub.
As for the rest of that wall of text, you kinda misunderstood me, i am not saying he should ignore comp feedback or comp is not important, but it is not anyone place to come tell him he is shooting himself in leg in contest with death pits in contest that has nothing to do with comp scene or comp players.

 

[grazr]

Let's be fair tough, this is not comp contest so does what comp players hate really matter anyway?

When you're making a map using a game mode used by a specific demographic of players it would be silly to ignore that demographic when designing your map. Just because the contest isn't related or marked on comp based criteria isn't a reason to ignore it.

...and yes, comp players hating death pits is a generalisation, each player has their individual tastes; but generalisations come from somewhere, data that influences our understanding of a demographic of people allows us to make these assumptions and for them to be more likely accurate than inaccurate. You can cite the the comp-CTF contest FAQ, it was advised against environment hazards such as death pits and trains by comp-experienced judges/advisers as comp players prefer to pit their combat skills without being interrupted by a third party threat. But of course that's not to say a death pit cannot be executed in a quality fashion, it's just advisable to be cautious when implementing such a hazard when it serves to deter a large portion of your potential player base.

 

[Wilson]

But Grazr, you got to look it from contest side too, comp players views on things are not going to matter unless we suddenly get comp matches on maps and judges that play them a la comp ctf contest, that i doubt is going to happen, hence it is bit silly to come and claim map is shooting him into his own leg, looking how pub plays are one to choose what map wins what, and that is section in tf2 community that doesn't have big issue with deathpits.

I am not saying comp feedback should be ignored, i am just saying claiming things like that is bit silly.

 

[waxpax]

Found some lines in the floor in the spot under last:

http://steamcommunity.com/id/waxpax/screenshot/558653617774968961?tab=public
http://steamcommunity.com/id/waxpax/screenshot/558653617774972877/?tab=public
http://steamcommunity.com/id/waxpax/screenshot/558653617774976394/?tab=public

 

[Arnold]

 

[Seba]

That truss bothers me infinitely because it's a wide beam made of thin strips; I recommend using the ibeam texture you've got going on the horizontal faces instead.

 

[Arnold]

you're right, changing that

 

[Arnold]

updated to a 11

http://i.imgur.com/LMhIL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dJb1I.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Neuom.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9qYrY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KuBOb.jpg

 

[RaVaGe]

Need a rocket on this last point !

 

[Ezekel]

final points need more team specific colouration. e.g. the walls are using the grey band of colour instead the team specific one. you're only team indication is a couple of out the way computer terminal models, and a few team coloured things on the wall (overlay, maps). it just doesn't feel overly "this is the red/blue teams base here" and feels more like a neutral centre area.
i think rav has it right with his comment above - a team coloured rocket in that room would really help distinguish the team ownership, whilst the vertical rocket would be a good way to guide the eye to the point, which would be nicely framed between the exhausts of the rocket and the ground

edit: also the padded wall texture you use higher up - not sure that makes sense with the open roof. wouldn't it rot away after being rained on a few times?

in your 3rd image:
tightly rounded wooden wall above a tightly rounded brick wall? - i don't think that'd even be possible in real life and it looks really weird

also: structures that are 90% one wooden texture and then have one segment made of metal - don't use that metal texture for it, it looks out of place on the predominately wooden structure.
personally i'd say keep the structure all wooden, but at the very least if it's metal you're gonna use, make it one that won't catch the light so sharply/brightly.

last picture again doesn't feel like it's the red side of the map - it coulld easily be the blue 2/4 point. you need to strengthen your team colours more

 

[Arnold]

Thanks Ezekel a lot of the things you mentioned i noticed myself so i'll be changing a lot of them. The middle point is really just a placeholder for now so that will certainly change.

About the team colours though, I really want the map to have this clean white neutral feeling overall with little accents. A rocket on last point wouldn't make sense and doesn't really fit scale-wise but i'm working on making it feel more Red/Blu

 

[tyler]

You could always use the stripe textures from Gorge I guess.

 

[waxpax]

This pill and sign are doubled on top of each other

You can jump from here:

to here:

and get behind the map here:

Not sure if you want people up here:

or here:

not sure you want people here other:

I get stuck on these rocks

 

[Arnold]

Thanks i'll be fixing all of those, do you happen to have a demo of the match?

 

[Ezekel]

you could try tinting the lighting slighty red and blue in appropriate areas if you don't want to out and out make it look red/blue.
although i'd say you probably should consider making the last points have a strong feeling of ownership rather than being a clean slate as the last points are the HQ of each team on this sort of map.